Messi vs. football records

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Bada Bing, Mar 9, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    From the journalist Graham Hunter's book about Barcelona:

    "So it was that two Argentinian intermediaries in Buenos Aires heard about this amazing kid who couldn't grow properly. They phoned a contact, Horacio Gaggioli, in Barcelona, who brought into this drama a central character -- Josep Maria Minguella, a ubiquitous figure in the modern history of FC Barcelona and an extraordinary man.

    Minguella was taken on at FC Barcelona as a translator to the English coach Vic Buckingham back in 1970. He became a coach, the manager's assistant, a youth-team organiser, a scout and a player agent. He's also the man who brought Diego Maradona, Romario, Hristo Stoichkov and, finally, Leo Messi to the Camp Nou."


    Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/news/20120206/barca-extract/#ixzz2PmU6klth
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Whatever, his family had contacts and friends in Catalonia which isn't a sign of being part of the absolute lower classes. As also said by Messi himself:
    http://www.lionel-messi.co.uk/category/messi-quotes/page/2/
     
  3. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Really disagree with this. I think Zlatan's lanky, awkward physique was much more difficult to turn into that of a great attacking player than Messi's. So many greats--Maradona, Baggio, Rivera, Pele, Puskas, etc.--had the small, low center of gravity Leo does.

    My larger point was that Zlatan came from a rough neighborhood in a relatively obscure part of the football world, lifted himself up by his bootstraps, and has won trophies everywhere, even with somewhat mediocre teams. For the people here who adhere to only stats, it doesn't matter that Messi has thrived on historically the most dominant ever, where he's been protected always and supported by an extraordinarily cohesive cast of great players.

    As a thought experiment, imagine if this season Barca used, say, Fabregas instead of Messi while PSG used Nene instead of Zlatan. What would happen? We know with a certainty that PSG would not win Ligue 1 and reach the quarterfinals of the CF. But I can't say Barca would automatically become a second-rate team in the same way.
     
  4. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    You're doing the same thing you accuse me of, though, isolating one small post in this thread and over-reacting to it. I obviously don't think one game vs. Mallorca is pertinent to the question of how great Messi is. It simply illustrated my point about the context in which Barca play; always with 70% of possession and dominating with more shots and goal chances, with or without their great #10.

    I don't know what you mean, either, by calling me a liar. I think you are not in control of your emotions. Maybe the topic of Messi is not one you are able to talk about in a calm way?
     
  5. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Nene scored 21 goals, got 11 assists and was (with Hazard) the best player in Ligue 1 last season. Every reason to believe PSG would still have won the league with him in place of Ibra.
     
  6. Zlatko2010

    Zlatko2010 Member

    Mar 16, 2013
    Diego Maradona: “Ibrahimovic is almost at the same level as Cristiano Ronaldo, who is obviously only 2nd to Messi. The best players in the world? Messi, Ronaldo and then Ibra and Rooney who are both at the same level.''
     
  7. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Perhaps, though PSG haven't won Ligue 1 since 1993-94 and Ibra's arrival have given them something extra. Pick an equivalent player to Fabregas in terms of stats, as a replacement striker for Ibra in our thought experiment. (Michu, maybe?). I think Barca would keep playing the same way, dominating games, scoring goals, winning the league and getting far in the CL. Would PSG do the same? I just can't imagine it. Ibra has brought experience, confidence, and an edge that wasn't there.
     
  8. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    http://people.ufpr.br/~mmsabino/sstatistics/puskas.html
    You would give the same 'a player that makes his team win 4-1 instead of 2-1' label to Puskas, would you?
    The national teams of Brazil and Denmark also did quite well bringing home a trophy without they greatest player ever respectively.
    What is you conclusion?

    How on earth was Messi not the decisive factor in countless of games against RM and many CL knockout games? Like you know... about a month ago.

    Now I expected you to tell me 'he made them win 4:0 instead of 2:0' ;)
     
  9. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    PSG are on course to get less points than they did last season. The main reason they will win the league is nobody has played as well as Montpellier.

    Man for man they have a better squad than Barcelona do, certainly in attack.
     
  10. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Umm, are you for real?

    Silva 42M
    Lavezzi 26M
    Alex 5M
    Maxwell 3.5M
    Zlatan 21M
    Van Der Viel 6M
    Verratti 11M
    Motta 11.5M
    Moura 40M
    Total 166M

    And you pick Zlatan, but not Messi in Barcelona?
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Nene missed in 2011-2012 three league games. PSG drew 2 and lost 1 game.

    Zlatan has missed so far three league games too in 2012-2013. PSG drew 2 and lost 1 as well.


    Messi misses one game, is replaced by Fabregas and Barca achieves their best scoreline against a low placed team of this season (best scoreline against a bottom five team). 3 goals and 1 assist for Fabregas. 6 shots in total, 5 on target and 4 key passes too. And that within 65 minutes of time (why did they sub him? Were they afraid for a too big embarrassment? This wasn't exactly part of the storyboard isn't it?).

    Very easy to say 'PSG has man for man a better team'. Wasn't exactly visible in the Champions League although Barca lacked a quality finisher in that game.
     
  12. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I love how someone still tries to make a point from Mallorca (20.) game. I mean how slow you have to really be? Couple other examples

    Getafe (13.) 0-1 Barcelona before Messi game on 58th, end result 1-4
    Barcelona 1-0 Deportivo (20.) before Messi game on 63th, end result 2-0
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Last year Nene scored two goals in the Europa League. 1 field goal against a Luxembourg team and one penalty against Red Bull Salzburg.
    Season before was better but also not groundbreaking. While PSG was aiming for European success.

    Zlatan has now 3 goals plus 6 assists in the current CL season.
     
  14. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    If other countries were equally backwards, why weren't they underperforming the same way Italian teams did back then? Remember Serie A had the lowest goal average in the world in the 1970s/early 1980s, with the Albanian and Turkish league.

    Spanish football was also underdeveloped in the 70s, and that's why Rinus Michels could never repeat his total football there. It was often violent and pitches were only slightly better than in England. A tiqui-taca game wouldn't have been possible to develop in those circumstances.

    Zlatan is a professional cry baby, always moaning about this or that. When he was in Italy he was moaning about the defensive game and the lack of ambition, when he was in Barcelona about the "philosopher" coach and the "low profile" (an insult, in his world) team mates etc, in France he's complaining about fans not loving im enough.

    I know the kind of suburbs like Rosengård very well. In Sthlm we have worse places than that, but I can tell you life is not bad at all there. Social mobility in Sweden is one of the highest in the world, illiteracy almost doesn't exist and already in the 1960s we were the only country in the world where a person's class couldn't be determined by his/her physical and dental status. And lots of people who leave these "ghetti" after getting rich actualy move back there after awhile, because they miss the multicultural lifestyle.

    He had all possibilities to live a good life, so his moaning is just another of his cry baby antics.
     
    condor11 repped this.
  15. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Try to remember the mid-90s. George Weah was voted Ballon d'Or, ahead of Jürgen Klinsmann(!) in 1995. In 1996, Mattias Sammer was the #1 Footballer of the planet, according to the jury. With all respect for these players, there are dozens of players today that are better than they ever were. And I'd say Falcao is among them.
     
    condor11 repped this.
  16. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Zlatan has played for the richest and most powerful clubs of the planet, yet his maximum int'l success is one semifinal (in 2010, where he was the worst player on the pitch in both matches). What about his matches in World Cups and Euros? How many times has he reached a decent level?

    He has won league titles, sure, but what could you expect playing for Barcelona, Milan, Juventus, Inter, Ajax? This year the players of his team, PSG, have an average market value of 13m euros, compared to an average of 4m for Lyon and Marseille. Did it ever happen in football history that a club didn't win the league title in a similar financial inequality?
     
  17. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Exactly, Zlatan won 5 League titles in a row in Inter, Barca and Milan, but failed to win a single UCL-trophy when the teams discussed collected 4/5 UCL's at the same time.
     
    Skorenzy and condor11 repped this.
  18. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I kinda agree with you about Sammer- even though he had a great season 96 but Ronaldo was clear better and more deserved ( he lost by 1 vote)

    However Weah was a very very good player, much better than Klinsman and better than Zlatan, Falcao , Iniesta Rooney ...
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Puskas was indeed also someone who benefited to a great extent from the circumstances created by authoritarian communist and then fascist regimes. Hence, I would not rank the fat major among the top tier of AT greats.

    Both did not reach their best form (1962 and 1992 respectively). So in a way their omission was visible.

    With all due respect but this isn't related to the observation that English top defenses also conceded multiple goals against the same type of opponents.

    It is not 'wrong' what you say though.

    Few months back:
    I think those votes did not reflect reality. But that's a different story. In the past the best player did not always win (no matter how often Bada Bing is bragging about educating me). See the various examples in the Zico vs Maradona thread where the opinion of top-tier writers (who had a reputation to defend) did not always reflect the Ballon d'Or vote. The ESM teams of that period did not look too bad either
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/esm-xi.html
     
  20. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    When I interviewed to Sacchi he mentioned - talking about Zlatan - that some players don't know how to take full advantage of the team mechanisms, and Weah was the example he gave me (the opposite ex he gave was Van Basten). There's no denying Weah was a great player, but surely, compared to todays Messis, Cristianos, Xavis, Iniestas, Ribérys etc there is a big difference.

    Btw, in England they say Klinsmann was one of the players that added "glamour" to the PL. Klinsmann, glamour? Much water has passed under the bridges...
     
  21. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    The thing is that unemployed people in Sweden lead a good life (at least in economical terms).

    Social problems. Sure, they exist. But Romani people aren't really discriminated in Sweden: there are famous journalists, writers, actors, musicians etc that are Romani, and Zlatan never had anyone yelling things at him from the stands in his years in Malmö FF.

    There was a program on Swedish radio about this some time ago, and it turns out that most people there don't even know he's Romani. It's not considered relevant. But the Swedish National Romani Association said they're waiting for the day Zlatan talks about his origins. I doubt he will.
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Besides Messi and CR7, I do not see anyone on same talent level of George Weah ...
    Not sure what you meant by "big difference" ? Weah was proven great form PSG and immediate success at Milan SerieA toughest league in the world (80-99) if not history .
     
  23. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    I meant there's a big difference in quality if you compare the top players of today with the ones of 15 or 20 years ago. They is also a higher density of top class players in the 3-4 major leagues today, which means that great players meet a lot more today than in any other period in football. The growth of the UCL, national leagues, Euro & WC is the explanation, of course.
     
  24. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    this ... I kinda disagree ... Football is like all other sports which have up and down moments in producing more or less great players in certain periods. It depends on when is "TODAY" or yesterday

    For example:
    late 76-82 were low in "quantity" of quality players. Same with early 90's and NOW: 09-12
    60's to early 70's were great era.
    mid 80s were also very good era
    mid 90-mid 2000s were great era

    Having said that, if you picked the NOW (09-12) compared specifically to late 80-early 90s (of Weah ) then it's very debatable , or could be better. But 09-now were definitely worse than 96-06 era in term of quality per se ...
     
  25. Lucas...

    Lucas... Member+

    Dec 18, 2012
    What are the reasons for this? Seriously, I can not talk about this difference because we are living in this era, now. That seems nostalgia. I believe there are good times and bad with generations of countries (Spain lives great moment, Brazil not), but in general, don't believe the difference in quality of eras. Didn't stop emerge great players, people have not stopped playing football. The difference in this time in comparison to others is Messi, that is far superior to others players, either technically or in statistics.
     
    Jaweirdo repped this.

Share This Page