4-0 now in 40th minute. I believe this will make 13 of 14 possible wins for Barca without Messi in the recent period for which he's been absent from the team ...
Kneejerk from home game against bottom team of Liga who isn't even defending? Expected nothing else from a poster like you.
Just wanna highlight the fact Barca enjoyed having a great time with great squad quality and form. (to against many claim on Pep's "revolution" and Messi's greatness contribution) Nevertheless , Pep was still a very good coach and Messi is of course a TOP ALL time player (with or without Barca)
And knee jerk hyperbolic defense of Messi for a throwaway remark? I would expect nothing else of you, given your general slavering over Messi and the pointless, unimaginative nature of this thread. Indeed one game doesn't mean anything. But there are more interesting players in the world than Messi, and devoting yourself to the cause of statistical celebration of a player with every conceivable factor titled in his favor is banal. And it still hasn't been shown conclusively whether Messi is such a crucial player as you think he is. I guess we have a few years to find out.
I'm shocked. I've expected them to have trouble at home against the last placed team with the 2nd worst GA without Messi.
For my own clarity (I haven't seen you in this thread), are you of the side that rates La Liga--citing CL and Europa successes, etc.--or are you of the "two-horse" league belief? I don't think we can have it both ways. Most of the folks who think Messi is the GOAT are quite desperate to say he (and Barca) perform weekly in the best European league. Just curious.
It's obvious that Barca easily wins without Messi , just look at proof at Spain NT that won last 3 major international trophies and where the main players that rule the game are from Barca and do it without Messi.
It was Mallorca FFS. Does anyone honestly think Barca would have as good of a chance against Bayern or Real Madrid without Messi as they would with him? Let's not be delusional.
Pretty clear by now that there is fairly unstinting zeal for Messi in this thread, to the point where even healthy skepticism is not welcomed. However, and despite the ridicule I've received, let me reiterate again the points I've raised, bearing in mind that I've been a member of BigSoccer since 2005 and that at the least I am a respected contributor to the Italy forum where I was once moderator. 1. Messi is a great player, with probably unparalleled stats for someone his age or any. 2. Stats aside, how important is he as a player when Barcelona (and Spain) win without him, and Argentina do not win with him? In a word, can we define the greatest player ever as someone who helped his team win games 4-1 instead of 2-1, or lose them 2-1 instead of 2-0, e.g., rather than as the player who was the difference-maker? 3. It is second-rate, unimaginative, and slavish, to have a thread devoted to the heaping of statistics and records Messi has compiled without some consideration of the context in which these stats have been recorded. As Malcolm Gladwell says in Outliers, we think too much of individual genius, and not enough of the circumstances in which genius has expressed itself. And Messi has had the cushiest circumstances in which to succeed: on the historically most-dominant team ever, never leaving, always healthy, with a great supporting cast, with a lion's share of possession each game and a huge number of shots taken, in an era when egregious fouling of attacking players had been minimized and man-marking had declined as a practice. Mustn't we take this context into account? Food for thought, if nothing else. Since Messi is 25, we'll have time to see what he does in the years to come.
Do you even follow football? What t is generally not welcomed are liars. Try to back up your above statement by looking at how many decisive goals (removing them resulting in a lose or draw or elimination) Messi scored.
You also have to look at Messi's contemporaries. Only Cristiano Ronaldo (who is also in a damn good situation) is even close to being as dominant as him.
I already explained in the first post, how the national team argument really isn't an argument against Messi or Barcelona. Did you read it, or didn't you understand it? Furthermore Messi last year equaled Batistuta's 1 year goal record for Argentina, was world's top national team scorer and has been playing like in Barcelona since Sabella arrived as a head coach, and look where Argentina are now in WCQ. So how can Messi be now as good in both teams? Because he finally has a team in Argentina.
Incredibly weak response. I guess it's considered witty if all you do is ask a sarcastic question. In reality you're not funny, and not that clever either. We're talking about who is the greatest player of all time, and I'm asking us to look beyond mere statistics (football not being a stats-rich game, after all) at both context and the larger picture, and the only response is, "stats!" It's myopia, plain and simple.
I've watched Maradona in his prime, and Messi for me is better. What else can you expect from me to look? And what has this got to do with thread about statistics and records?
Your point is tiresome and wrong. You try to say that if Messi played for Roma he wouldn't be setting these records. That much is true. But if Messi played for Roma he would be bought by Barcelona. You say he's setting these records because of this, this and that. But there are many, many players with the same environment who have accomplished nothing special. Even those who did accomplish something special can't compare. In the end you're not making a rational point.
Quite obviously you don't if you don't see Messi as a difference maker. No stats needed either, just a pair of eyes. Your whole 'argument' is based on a lie (#2). Well I don't, but the reasoning you use is still wrong. Pick out a game/tournament against a players decisiveness. Now think how often you could apply this to several alltime greats. Of course this isn't brought up by you, but solely used against Messi in the most ridiculous way with a victory against the worst team in Liga.
A lot of confusion in this discussion, probably due to the fact that there is an incredible concentration of exceptional talent in la Liga right now. By the mid-90s, a guy like Radamel Falcao would have been a Ballon d'Or, but now we hardly mention him because of Cristiano and Messi. Poor Cristiano is performing at an incredible level, still he is overshadowed by Messi. If CR scores three, Messi hits four. If CR scores from 40 metres, Messi will dribble 8 men to score. Frustrating for CR, but spectacular for fans to watch. But even Messi cannot enjoy his triumphs thoroughly, since he's got people like Xavi and Iniesta behind him and the "anyone could score assisted by players like that" argument is never far away. What people should realize tho, is that the Xavi+Iniesta+Leo is a 1+1+1=4 (or even 5) equation, which is quite rare in football, the sport of überboosted egos, where a 1+1+1 is often =2.
Please not again this rhyme. If Italian football was backward then others were too. Also look at against which teams other pairs like Hansen-Lawrenson conceded, or various German teams with a solid defense. Basically every 'legendary' defense conceded goals against those kind of teams I mentioned. This is a very dishonest portrayal. Zlatan may have grown up in a comprehensive welfare state (which is on retreat), it is clear that it was an insecure environment. Very unstable. Welfare states generally don't provide security or proper parents. The neighborhood he used to grow up is a real ghetto. And like he himself said (the quote is at least attributed to him but he denied it later on): "You can take a man outside Rosengard but not Rosengard out of the man." You yourself have said this too but now you pretend as if it is an law abiding suburb for the standards of any other country. Meanwhile, Messi his background is always described as middle class. It is again an image that his management cherishes. A guy who grew up in a stable and decent environment, nurtured by competent parents. He wasn't poor and his elderly house is certainly not comparable with, say, Maradona. Remember too that these parents had good contacts with Catalonia, that is not a sign of lower class mentality and outlook. Zlatan was very tall and lean in his early years. Also when he came to Ajax. He started to develop body and muscles when he came to Italy. That is also in his book and it is true. Growth hormone deficiency had been a problem if he was born before the 1960s but now it is a blessing in disguise. The liberal Spanish laws doesn't stipulate that Barcelona needs to disclose this information but probably Messi has a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption) which does not expire when a guy reaches adulthood and maturity. We simply don't know, it is pure speculation, but it doesn't have to be an disadvantage. On the contrary. What we do know is that pharmacy is a very profitable business in Spain, that they sell more as in any other country, have more pharmacy shops as any other country too and that doctors tend to use greater doses as strictly necessary (compared with other countries that is; in general they tend to use greater quantities). And now Fabregas + Alexis were the focal points with them scoring the decisive goals. Fabregas had 6 shots, 5 on target and 3 goals. Alexis 3 shots and 2 goals. That are the kind of stats that Messi sometimes has. Though, their control is not remotely the same. Sometimes sloppy. The bottom five teams of Primera Division are within four points of each other. This is how Barcelona played against them: Granada - 2:0 home, 1:2 away Zaragoza - 3:1 home; away game next week Deportivo - 2:0 home; 4:5 away Celta: 3:1 home; 2:2 away Mallorca: 5:0 home (without Messi); 2:4 away Would be misleading to say "they perform even better without Messi" but brushing it away with "it is one game against the bottom team" does also not take previous results into account. Again very disingenuous to state. Falcao is a great striker but a one in the mold of Vieiri, Van Nistelrooy, Klinsmann and many other great ones of the past. Those did not win a Ballon d'Or either. And you don't win it too for scoring tons of goals in the irrelevant Europa League. Batistuta, praised by many others here in another thread, never won one too at his prime. Nor an SAPOTY award. But oh well, of course the wrong countries were performing well at the mid-90s. The fire squad of the corporate media does the rest.
Uahahahahahahaha. Messi, difference -maker? Tell me a game where Barcelona played bad and Messi was the one who won a game by himself? Messi is only good when Barcelona plays good, create a lot of free spaces, but when the game isn't played in that way for Barcelona Messi is the one who many expects to make some difference, but he constantly fails those expectations. This was proved a dozens of times in crucial matches of Barca and in national team. Messi plays good in national team last year? From when scoring goals in friendlies against Brazil and Germany is considered something really worth of attention? Messi is a player who should try to equal or beat Di Stefano's club achievements. I don't think that he need to bother himself to do something that Maradona and Pele done on a world stage, it's an another level, not reachable for Messi.
I haven't heard anything about his parents having any contacts with Catalonia. As for his parents' income, they were not able to afford $900/month for the treatments. That is less than the cost of daycare for one child in the US, when both parents have to work.
They had. Just a random search on google reveals it too and also mentioned in a documentary. Example: More: http://www.cadenaser.com/deportes/a...cia-lleida/csrcsrpor/20110928csrcsrdep_11/Tes http://www.mundodeportivo.com/20111...-primos-de-cuarta-generacion_54229565372.html Well, the nominal GDP per capita of Argentina is as of 2012 (dunno for 1999-2000) around 11000 dollars a year. No surprise that they could not afford it. Probably 80% of the Argentinians can't afford it and it is a hefty sum for most Europeans as well, when factoring in all fixed costs etc.