Haha you read me well there ... Well first of all, we have to put into the same context, circumstances and situations when comparing them. 1- Platini: I may agree that Platini could well be slighly and tiny bit better in control midfield than Zico! However, I would use the same term of yours to say: "there is NOT MUCH evidence" to claim Platini was betetr than Zico/Maradona in term of "dictating tempo" from midfield. At least I did not see that. Look: - At Juve Boniek helped ALOT in dictating the tempo so Platini got more freedom to go up and scoring goals. - AT National team, Tigana/Giresse did the tempo for the team. Here Platini again had more freedom to go in attack! Zico and Maradona had worse team mates in Serie A compared to Platini, to be honest! With Brazil (much better team mates) Zico CLEARLY had betetr stats than Platini/Maradona 2- Zico: Again, people judge Zico by his 60's games for Brazil and <40games at Unidese where he played a bit up? His career was >800games in side Brazil! Between Zico and Platini, I agree there is not much difference in quality and effectiveness to the game per se. They were a bit different in style (SA to Europe) but their "influence/productive" level are very similar! 3- Maradona: Back to your question, I AGREE that there is not much evidence to show Maradona was more "influence/productive" than Zico/Platini. However, again, go back to the first item as if: - Imagine Maradona played for Juve? or if he had team mates like Tigana, Giresse, and Fernandez on his back? Burugacha was very good but not a match to Tigana/Giresse I think - Maradona at least did rise high (despite of a so-so team) at WC86 to show his "influence = win WC, and Productive = 5goals+5ass/7games) - Maradona at least in 4,5 years at a newkid on the block of Napoli to have won 2 SerieA + 1 UEFA cup = his "influence and productive" there! Now, I am not sure if Napoli with eitehr Zico or Platini would have won any thing at all?
Winning with Argentina and Napoli is something special that puts Maradona to the top of the ATG list. Also, he proved himself in both mark-marking and zone-pressing eras while the other two didn't. One thing that I saw in Series A games, Platini was a great playmaker indeed but he seemed not to be able to handle a zone-pressing tactic. When subject to pressing or tight defense, he easily lose ball possession (I personally think this is the real reason why he prematurely retired). Zico on the other hand was as skillful as him but not so influential. I have no idea how to interpret it quantitatively but, when Maradona played, his teammates were relentless and never gave up. They kept running tirelessly. Here is some example how he used his skills to influence the game. In this video from 43.40 onwards, Ferrara told that his mere juggling can affect 2 ways: release his teammates tension and at the same time increase the tension of the opposition.
Do you have some info about this? At World Cup stage one of his best games, if not the best, was probably against Brazil in 1986. That team played a zonal based set of tactics too.
I think he had better games, but the stage and the opponent has to be weighed in in this regard. Anyway, I have ratings of 5 different sources from that game: El Grafico 5; La Gazzetta dello Sport 6; Corrieri dello Sport 7; La Stampa 7; Mundo Deportivo 2 (Note: Mundo Deportivo only goes from 1-6 - a rating of a 6 used to be rare since it meant beyond excellence, like a 10 for the others). Here's one example from La Gazzetta dello Sport (taken from personal archive): It is strange to notice that the Spanish newspaper of Mundo Deportivo had him with the lowest rating for his country and lowest of the game with Muller. I'm not sure what their explanation of that is...will have to read the report.
Which ones are your thinking about? Whatever, curious about the 'zonal marking' point, which supposedly had a role in his early retirement.
I thought he had stronger displays in some matches at WC82, vs Kuwait and Northern Ireland - but this game in '86 was against a more formidable opponent and the stage was higher, so that has to be factored in. Also, maybe vs West Germany in the semifinal of 1982 as well.
Well, first of all: Napoli was one of the richest and most powerful clubs of Europe in the 80s. Ferlaino spent incredible money on players like Careca, Alemão, Salvatore Bagni, Bruno Giordano, Andrea Carnevale, Gianfranco Zola etc etc. Their direttore sportivo was Luciano Moggi, and in the 1988/89 UEFA Cup they got all kinds of favourable referee calls, in perfect Lucky Luciano style. In the 1986/87 season Maradona was not at all as brilliant as many people -still- seem to think: it was a team effort. Anyway, in a club like Juventus, Inter, Milan - to a lesser extent Roma - some of Diego's antics - like disappearing, calling the coach an incompetent moron etc - would not have been accepted. Maradona seems to have thrived in situations where he was the undisputable #1: his ego probably didn't accept to be challenged. I think he would have had a hard time to cooperate with a Boniek, a Platini, a Giresse.
I don't have any source to support. Sorry! About 7 years ago or so, some French guys discussed about Platini vs Zidane on the soccerpulse forum (now has been closed). Some of Zidane fans claimed that in France they know he retired due to a problem with the zonal tactic while ZZ doesn't have such a problem. So, I have to say this is unreliable.
Exactly, I have thought about making thread about this for some time now. We can see from direct contribution how, Maradona 89-90 actually were a lot more influential than Maradona 86-87, a lot. And people still like to romantize things like how he single-handedly dragged them to first Serie-A win of Napoli. Now I've watched both play in their seasons in question, and I think these stats portray pretty well the situations, and for me Messi actually have carried, or influenced Barcelona more, this season, than what Maradona did in Napoli. I would rank seasons in question, by influence, in this order: 1. Messi 12-13 2. Maradona 89-90, Messi 11-12 3. Messi 10-11 4. Maradona 86-87, Messi 09-10
Where did you got those assist numbers from? It is good to note though that Messi plays more advanced and is (even) 'lazier' and more focused on the goal in this season as in the previous ones. For same reason Pelé had a high contribution in the goals scored.
You can watch every Napoli goal in youtube. Assists which I counted Maradona Serie-A assists 1986-87 1. Napoli - Torino 3-1, Giordano (Rebound) 2. Sampdoria - Napoli 1-2, Caffarelli (Rebound) 3. Napoli - Ascoli 3-0, Romano 4. Torino - Napoli 0-1, Giordano 5. Napoli - Juventus 2-1, Renica 6. Ascoli - Napoli 1-1, Carnevale
I've never heard of Platini having problems with zonal tactics to be honest. The most common explanation for his early retirement is that he simply had no gas in the tank anymore and that he wanted to retire before his decline was too 'visible' and painful to watch. Several clubs wanted to sign him in 1987 including some who wanted to use him as a... libero but he refused.
Thanks. I did a count too and saw 5 assists. For 1984/1985 5 assists as well, 1985/1986 4 assists. But there is always a small margin of error (I prefer a very strict definition of an assist). Regarding Boca Juniors 1981 I think he had between 16-20 assists in 40 games - depending on criteria.
Not to mention all the emotional cauldron around the scandals of his "illegitimate" son that made the headlines for months durin the autumn/winter. In the autumn of 1986 Napoli also made their first EC appearance for 4 years: they lost in the 1st round of the UEFA Cup to Gérald Passi's and Yannick Stopyra's Toulouse after penalties and Diego missed the decisive shot.
I didn't read the whole report but apparently they said he was excessively slow in this game ( Platini, por cierto, esta vez ralentizó excesivamente su fútbol pasean). He hardly runned and didn't seek to keep the ball in his feet in this game indeed -mainly due to his ankle injury and because of the severe heat- but he still created chances, relying mostly on his sense of positioning and passing. And of course he scored a goal. He surely didn't deserve such a low rating. http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1986/06/22/pagina-6/1138362/pdf.html?search=platini
For 1989/1990 dbscalcio has average ratings for Napoli. I take it with a grain of salt but Maradona his average rating was lower as in the seasons before. He was also not the highest rated player of his team (Alemao had of players with more than 15 games a higher rating). Starting at 1984/1985 (his highest) it started to drop at every next season. Also interesting is that Zola, the understudy of Maradona, had a 6.7 in the 7 games he was rated. Maradona had a 6.4. Still, in 1989/1990 the production in terms of goals and assists was at peak level and higher as in the seasons before. But arguably/maybe also the team was better and I certainly know that the tactics were more attacking oriented as in the first scudetto season. The most curious thing is that the ratings declined but production increased with every next season.
Another point is that even though Zidane's and Platini's average position was the same, Zidane usually didn't move forward as often as Platini did. Platini was more often 'in the traffic' up-front roaming in the opposite defense whereas Zidane had more space in midfield. That was probably easier for Zidane to handle with tight defenses (Additionally, Zidane was also probably better at keeping the ball).
That's right; I think that has to do with the improvement of the team. Also important to note that a guy like Careca only arrived to the club because he wanted to play alongside Maradona. Without Diego there I doubt he moves to that club at all. In regards to the 86/87 season: La Gazzetta dello Sport gave a final rating to all Napoli players at the end of the season and Maradona was awarded an 8. (This rating was not an average rating taken from every game but more of an overview of what every player's contribution was to the team.) It's interesting to note that only several defenders were rated higher, which is understandable.
Ratings are subjective, mate. It's fun to read but... Yes, the heat was a significant issue in that game and in the tournament. The pitches were also in a state of condition where it was difficult to control the ball. And then the injuries which guys carried and played through back then, quite admirable.
Speaking of rates, which are indeed subjective, according to dbscalcio.it Maradona got for the 1986-87 season a higher rating than Platini in any of his season with Juventus... And for what Puck tells me, this is not the rates of a single publication, but an average of several. Same source indicates that the ratings that Maradona got that season in average were superior to both Bagni´s and Ferrara´s, btw.
These are the Serie A ratings of La Repubblica in the 1986-87 season: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2011/11/memory-lane-serie-1986-87.html And these are Napoli's ratings in all matches (league and cups) the same year: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2012/11/memory-lane-napoli-198687.html La Repubblica is a Rome newspaper, thus more difficult to accuse of "anti-southern" than Milanese Gazzetta dello Sport and Corriere della Sera and Piedmontese La Stampa.
Yes, do you know which ones? I think Msioux75 posted partial results from Guerin and at the time Maradona and Passarella had the highest ratings halfway through the season.
I don't know about that. I've been there many times in the past and when spoken of Napoli, people did not have nice things to say. Besides, this was also a rivalry in football.