As always, your thoughts on some of the leading performers of the tournament please: Goalkeepers Jean-Marie Pfaff Harald Schumacher Ezaki Zaki Peter Shilton Rinat Dasaev Full-backs Manuel Amoros Josimar Julio Alberto Raul Servin Centre-backs Oscar Ruggeri Morten Olsen Jorge Luis Brown Julio Cesar Karlheinz Forster Oleg Kuznetsov Fernando Quirarte Central midfielders Lothar Matthaus Soren Lerby Luis Fernandez Jean Tigana Ivan Yaremchuk Alemao Attacking midfielders Diego Maradona Jorge Burrachaga Frank Arnesen Michel Platini Enzo Scifo Wingers Igor Belanov Gordon Strachan Jesper Olsen Forwards Preben Elkjaer-Larsen Michael Laudrup Emilio Butragueno Jorge Valdano Jan Ceulemans Strikers Gary Lineker Careca Alessandro Altobelli Rudi Voller
I can't think of any obvious players that have been excluded. If I was to suggest other names then perhaps Edinho the Brazilian centre-back could be considred and maybe the Soviet Union AM Zavarov. There's plenty that might be worthy of a 1 star depending on how many you want to include I suppose (maybe Hoddle for England for example - Barnes based on his form when he played but guess he didn't play enough, maybe Vercauteren as another Belgian although I checked his OPTA widget stats and his passing accuracy wasn't great). The two positions I think I'd switch unless I'm mistaken would be Ceulemans to an AM and Belanov to a forward (the same as Elkjaer would seem correct I think). Hard maybe to seperate forwards and strikers in that era but the ones that are definately more fitting for the strikers category are in there. I think Laudrup as a forward makes sense (more than possibly for Juventus) wheras Maradona as an AM is also fair enough (you'll have seen the discussion about that on the other thread). I think Laudrup would be more of an SS and leaning to an AM compared to the other forwards if Ceulemans and Belanov do swap. but I think it's fair enough even though Elkjaer was more of the line leader with Laudrup in support and dropping deep and moving wide more often. Hard to say which ratings should be given out apart from Maradona's, but probably Lineker and Tigana would merit 2 stars I feel at least.
Apologies in advance as I haven't looked at any stats but wondering why Gordon Strachan is included...? I appreciate he scored our only goal of the finals but when we needed attacking inspiration against a team with 10 men our creative and attack minded players collapsed without any ideas. I also appreciate GS was 'targeted' for treatment by Uruguay (from the very 1st min obviously) but does his stats put him as one of the better performers in the tournament...? I can't honestly remember him standing out for us. Was it mainly for that well taken goal...? If so, then why not Roy Aitken from a Scottish context? He supplied the assist for Strachan's goal and had a perfectly good goal against Denmark in the opening match incorrectly chopped off.
Two key reasons: 1. He had a high average rating from Placar. 2. Short on wingers. Neither particularly persuasive.
Edinho was better than Julio Cesar, and Socrates definitely has to be listed as he was superb. Other omisisons are Mexican keeper Larios, Paraguayan forwards Cabanas and Romero, Junior and Elzo from Brazil's midfield, Giresse and Bats for France.
Yes he did. Slightly difficult to assess the USSR. Obviously played well but went out in the second round, as with Denmark.
Find this a hard WC to rate. Some are obvious of course but others are interchangeable. See Scifo is mentioned. He received rather funnily criticism from his own coach and in home country. Ceulemans is a good call (FourFourTwo mentions him too as one of best 10 at 1986). I'm not sure about calls for central midfielders. Soren Lerby has good ratings but was not included in all star teams. Matthaus ratings aren't great. Do they have good stats instead? Fernandez received the most hype I think but that does not necessarily mean that he was the best (he was part of a generally popular team). He was anyway in better shape as his team-mate Tigana.
For El Grafico, uruguayan GK Fernando Alvez had 2 great matches vs W.Germany and Argentina. Of course he received six goals vs Denmark, but it could be said thatmost goals weren't his fault (except the last one, i think) I remember goalies like Bats (very good but irregular) and brazilian Carlos Gallo who get the unbeaten minutes record for a WC until then.
Article I read mentions that he was voted as 'young player of the tournament' though, forgot that. Also Maradona praised Scifo (as only player). Ratings are good indeed, stats not. Think of Germany (they had arguably one of their weakest teams but still reached final) Briegel was very good. He has good ratings too and pundits over here thought the same (until final). Rinus Michels said on the day before the final (in sum) two things: 1) Maradona was a miracle and "individually" better as Pelé and Cruyff 2) He said that Maradona should be marked by Briegel and not Matthaus because the latter one was too aggressive in his approach and prone to making crucial errors in his view. He expected that Briegel would do that job (he was wrong).
Magath was not a stats-based player, but he was the brains of that team. I also wouldn't call them a weak team, not when you have Magath, Littbarski, Rummeniege, Matthaus, Brehme, Voeller, Allofs, and Schumacher on the team.
How about this for an initial ranking: Goalkeepers Jean-Marie Pfaff *** Harald Schumacher *** Zaki * Peter Shilton * Rinat Dasaev * Full-backs Manuel Amoros *** Josimar * Julio Alberto * Raul Servin * Centre-backs Oscar Ruggeri *** Morten Olsen *** Karlheinz Forster ** Oleg Kuznetsov * Jorge Luis Brown * Julio Cesar * Fernando Quirarte * Edinho * Central midfielders Lothar Matthaus ** Soren Lerby * Luis Fernandez * Jean Tigana * Ivan Yaremchuk * Alemao * Pavlo Yakovenko * Attacking midfielders Diego Maradona *** Jorge Burrachaga ** Frank Arnesen * Michel Platini * Enzo Scifo * Jan Ceulemans * Wingers Jesper Olsen * Forwards Preben Elkjaer-Larsen *** Igor Belanov *** Emilio Butragueno ** Jorge Valdano ** Michael Laudrup * Strikers Gary Lineker *** Careca *** Alessandro Altobelli * Rudi Voller *
Wouldn't Bossis and Battiston deserve to be mentioned ? They formed a pretty solid CB pair in that WC.
I think, just from going back through all the sources, that Battiston in particular is a good shout. Had good ratings and also a good position in the Castrol index. Also think that Batista potentially needs to be added as well. Meant to include Zavarov following PDG's suggestion.
Thanks for the Zavarov inclusion. I wasn't 100% but did think he'd had a good tournament and moreso knew that in the USSR he'd won the Player of the Year award while his team-mate Belanov won the Ballon D'or. He did well vs Belgium I think, including one particularly good assist to Belanov and the stats were good for chances created per minute. He was taken off and left out on occasion on the other hand. If I was to suggest a raise of a rating it'd probably be for Laudrup or Tigana I think, but no problems if you don't do that as it's your project not mine. In terms of another name to include I might be thinking about Bats, or possibly Socrates indeed - I wonder whether Socrates missed penalty vs France tarnished his tournament a bit? Also it could be assumed he was past his best by a margin having not shone greatly for Fiorentina, but he may have played well enough to get an inclusion in '86. Those are not definate recommendations either but just thoughts based on what I know and have seen.
Maybe you've seen it but I collected here some things: https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/all-star-teams-of-1986-world-cup.1979342/ What makes you think that Socrates played well? His stats?
Yeah I did see that - very good work again Puck. I also think we might have discussed 1986 on the 1982 thread did we? tbh I've lost track a bit but there have been quite a few all-star selections, player of the tournament votes posted and a lot of them by yourself. On Socrates - although as I mentioned to him once, I do think pipiolo ought to be more respectful of you in some posts I did notice his glowing praise of Socrates and in this case going from memory might be a good guide. So then I thought...yeah maybe he is worthy of consideration. He was the main playmaker for a Brazil team that did well generally and lost on penalties to France (as said Socrates missed his, although he'd scored with a similar short run-up penalty earlier in the WC) and I think he was still a key part of their team probably. His stats are pretty decent indeed for chances created per minute (which isn't the be all and end all stat even though it's one I mention a lot) and he was involved in a few goals too. He's more of a 'maybe'/worth considering player than a definate for me but thought he was worth mentioning. My case for Laudrup and Tigana: Tigana - he did well in all 3 major tournaments in the 80's I think but while his chances created stats were much better in '82 and then he was a key player and multi-assister in Euro '84 I think his role in 1986 was fully established at the heart of the team and some of the stats such as interceptions, recoveries etc IIRC do reflect this as well as what he did with the ball. I think maybe he was more of a central player for France by then rather than as in '82 a slightly more peripheral player with great contributions (I'm not saying which contribution was better, but just that he played a bit different perhaps). His nominations for votes and teams are a bit variable in both '82 and '86 I think aren't they? He did make some key contributions (not a stat - my judgement) such as his goal which was rare for him and his only one for France and was top quality, and another piece of play when in theory he got the pre-assist having dribbled down the inside left channel vs Italy (stats wise according to Opta that is just one successful pass and maybe a couple or so duels won I think). Laudrup - clearly great vs Uruguay, and though I have only seen extended highlights I think also very good vs Scotland and despite the heavy loss Spain too. Chances created per minute very good and the quality of those also very good. Crafted a couple of nice openings vs Spain as said which could have been crucial if taken advantage of, although obviously he didn't do enough to make the difference in the end. I do think his Uruguay performance comes into the brilliant category personally.
These were the average ratings that I found for the tournament: 8,00 : Maradona (Arg)7,33 : Yaremchuk (URS) 7,25 : Elkjær (Dan) 7,00 : Careca (Bra), Lerby & Arnesen (Dan) 6,88 : M. Laudrup (Dan), Belanov (URS), Bouderbala (Mar) 6,86 : Pfaff (Bel)6,83 : Yakovenko (URS) 6,80 : Júlio César (Bra), Lineker (Eng)6,75 : Calderé (Esp), Kuznetsov (URS), De Napoli (Ita), Zaki (Mar) 6,71 : Ruggeri & Burruchaga (Arg) 6,70 : Alemão (Bra), Michel (Esp), Hoddle (Eng) 6,67 : Josimar (Bra), Dasajev & Bessonov (URS), Flores (Mex) 6,62 : Zavarov (URS), Timoumi (Mar) 6,60 : Carlos & Edinho (Bra), Shilton (Eng), Negrete (Mex) 6,58 : Fernandez (Fra), Briegel (BRD), Gerets (Bel) 6,57 : Matthäus (BRD), Ceulemans & Claesen (Bel) 6,50 : Muller (Bra), M. Olsen & Bertelsen (Dan), Amoros & Battiston (Fra), Zubizarreta (Esp), Sansom & Beardsley (Eng), Demianenko & Aleinikov & Rats (URS), Altobelli (Ita), Scifo (Bel), Quirarte (Mex), Khairi (Mar) 6,42 : Platini & Stopyra (Fra) 6,40 : Sócrates (Bra), Butcher (Eng), Larios (Mex) 6,38 : Enrique (Arg), Bagni (Ita), Dolmy & Bouyahiaoui (Mar) 6,36 : Valdano (Arg), Schumacher (BRD) 6,33 : Berggreen (Dan), Bats (Fra), Waddle (Eng), Rodionov (URS), Vercauteren (Bel), Diogo (Uru) 6,30 : Elzo (Bra), Vervoort (Bel) 6,25 : Zico (Bra), Cuciuffo (Arg), Ayache & Rocheteau (Fra), Völler & Littbarski (BRD), Hodge (Eng), Vierchowod (Ita), Grun (Bel), Khalifa (Mar), Alvez & Francescoli (Uru) 6,21 : Giusti (Arg), KH Förster (BRD), 6,20 : Júnior (Bra), Veyt (Bel), Servín & Aguirre (Mex) 6,17 : H. Andersen (Dan), Eloy (Esp), Berthold & Magath (BRD), Steven & Reid (Eng), Barrios, Ramos & Da Silva (Uru) 6,14 : Brown (Arg), Bossis (Fra), Demol (Bel) 6,12 : Busk (Dan), Gallego (Esp), Lamris (Mar) 6,10 : Branco (Bra), Olarticoechea (Arg), Camacho (Esp), Jakobs (BRD), Renquin (Bel) 6,07 : Pumpido (Arg), Tigana (Fra), 6,00 : J. Olsen (Dan), Tomás, Francisco, Goicoechea, Víctor & Julio Alberto (Esp), Eder, Rummenigge & K. Allofs (BRD), G.M. Stevens (Eng), Scirea & Vialli (Ita), Muñoz , Boy, H. Sánchez & España (Mex), El Biyaz (Mar), Bossio, Gutiérrez & Santín (Uru) 5,92 : Giresse (Fra) 5,88 : Garré (Arg), Cabrini (Ita), Krimau (Mar), Acevedo (Uru) 5,83 : I. Nielsen (Dan), Bergomi (Ita), Desmet (Bel) 5,80 : Brehme (BRD) 5,75 : Papin (Fra), Fenwick (Eng), Conti & Galderisi (Ita) 5,70 : J. Salinas (Esp) 5,67 : Amador (Mex) 5,64 : Batista (Arg). 5,62 : G. Galli & Di Gennaro (Ita).
That's the set on the football-ratings-blogspot page I see with only players that made the 2nd round considered. I think Butragueno is missing isn't he?
There must be a minimum number of minutes necessary I think too, as just 11 England players are in I just counted and Barnes isn't one of them. Butragueno played enough minutes though. EDIT Guerin Sportivo is the source.
Not sure why Ruggieri is three stars while Brown only one...they played at about the same level, but they have to shoulder a big part in both of Germany's goals in the final, especially when they were almost identical to each other. I would give both either one or two stars, especially since Brown was better in the final, scoring a goal and playing injured for most of the match. Batista should be mentioned with one star. What the hell, PDG! I have been respectful of Puck and don't understand why you bring past issues to light? As for Socrates, he was the playmaker for a team that played extremely well and went out undefeated. His play was superb and I consider it better than some of the midfielders been highly rated in this thread, including Mattheus and even Burruchaga.