The Klinsmann Coaching thread, v1

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by bungadiri, Dec 28, 2011.

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  1. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Klinsmann has said A and done B (or C) for his entire USMNT tenure. Except for the times when he says B and does C. And that's a problem.

    The post Jamaica comments to press from players identifying the glaring tactical problem (lack of width & service to attacking players) is telling.
     
  2. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's either a serial liar or doesn't know what he's doing.

    Both diagnoses are very troubling.
     
  3. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In early 2011, BB was attempting to shift from the general 4-2-2-2 system he used much of the last cycle to a more "modern" or current 4-2-3-1. He had some of the same issues with playing 3 somewhat conservative CMs at the same time, and we saw some frustrating, low-scoring draws. We were about to see if Holden could join MB and Jones in that CM trio, except Holden was injured. In the Gold Cup he focussed on MB and Jones as the dual holding mids in a "pulley" system of a 4-2-3-1. It worked OK at times (Canada and Jamaica wins and 2nd Panama game) but collapsed in the Gold Cup Final, in part because BB overworked Jones and MB, and with neither one of those two being known for tactical discipline, the pulley system dual CMs struggled when they were both worn out.

    The point I'm getting to is that all JK really needed to do is get more disciplined performance from the dual CMs -- Make friggen sure that one was designated as the #6 rather than BB's preference for the pulley. If Jones wasn't mentally willing to play the #6 role he has played for Schalke or Blackburn, then put the athletic Edu there, or maybe test the mobile DM/CB Cameron there. The prior system just needed a bit more stability and consistancy in front of the CBs. With a dedicated #6, it would have allowed MB to play his workhorse fast transition #8 role in combination with the four more attack-minded players ahead of him (in the 4-2-3-1 or even back to the 4-2-2-2).

    But instead, JK has killed the US's fairly effective transition game by playing not a 1 DM screen for the CBs, but generally playing 3 DMs. It's overkill when just a tweaked 1-player adjustment screening the CBs would have been enough to tighten the defensive play without killing the attacking play.
     
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  4. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I think that's the issue right there. You want to give what Bradley tried a shot, nbecause you think we'd be more 'disciplined at playing our roles better this time around.

    I disagree. I think we would see much of the same this second time around. You don't think BB told both CM's to split of the burden of staying back when pushing up? Meaning, Mikey would tell his partner, 'you stay back when I run up, and if I see you go up I'll stay back'. It's just how things are with our group. The only guy you can really count on staying back, and being the pure Def. mid that would fit this, woudl be beckerman.

    Personally, I think the crowding of the midfield to help the defense.....works.... but the question is, how do we get our guys to transition from that to attack? I think what we lack is movement on spreading out once we get things under control, to counter and start something once we've controlled the ball on our side of the field.


    This is what has been poor for us. We've seen what happens when we've tried to revert back to BB's style of play, and relying on 2 CM's, one more defensive... vs. Slovenia... and they charged us right down the middle.
    Edit: We also lack more of a strong force in CM that can dribble, pull in players to open up the demspeys, landons, Altidores/Herc's and even Shea's for dangerous lanes open for passes. I like how BB used Freddy off the bench for this purpose, and think Corona can possibly do this too. I would like to see Corona tinkered with since torres doesn't seem to be cutting it for what JK is asking out of him.
     
  5. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Remember when Big Soccer criticized Bob for not saying very much following a match? Not much different here.
     
  6. juniorLA

    juniorLA Member

    Mar 4, 2008
    El Lay
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wasn't able to watch the Jamaica game, but based on what I've read, this ^ seems to sum up what happened. It does remind me, as well, very much of when we first started playing with 3 CMs.

    Because I didn't see the game, I can't comment on what went on/what went wrong, but that us a pretty discouraging loss, and it can't all be chalked up to a bumpy field.
     
  7. Balls of Fire

    Balls of Fire Member

    Oct 16, 2007
    Losing to Jamaica anywhere in the world is a sackable offense.
     
  8. lplaksina

    lplaksina Member

    Jan 5, 2002
    I believe that Klinsmann's lack of knowledge as a coach needs to be addressed. Quickly.
    I also believe he's lost the core group of players.
    Hope someone notices.
     
  9. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    The medium is exactly what Mr. Martin posted and what a lot of people have been saying for the last year. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

    Nobody is saying that we have to play the exact same way that we did under Bradley. There were weaknesses with those tactics. But that doesn't mean you need wholesale changes either. You can still accomplish the "proactive/possession" style soccer that people like you are clamoring for by tweaking the old system.



    That's not what he's saying. Trying reading the paragraph that I quoted again. We never had a dedicated #6 in Bradley's system.


    This is where you seem to break down. Given Klinsmann's preferred players and tactics....its impossible to fix our offefnsive woes. You can't transition into attack if you're midfield has three players who offer absolutely nothing at all to the attack. It's impossible.

    The only way to fix the offense is for JK to do two things.

    1) actually fix the defense rather than try to cover it up by playing extra DMs.

    2) pick 1 #6, not three of them.
     
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  10. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Hell, at this point I'll be ecstatic if he chose 2 #6's, not three of them
     
  11. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    No, but it will turn out the same way IMO. Look at how we got scored on vs. Slovenia (a weaker side by far comapred to the one that gave us hell in the WC).

    Yea, we can play possession under BB ball, but that's not the issue. It's how we leaked goals from the center of the park when we would lose it too far up field, and get hammered because of it.

    JK fixed that, but by killing off our offense.



    I did. You don't think he implied it when playing with two 'pulley' CM's... he never had the convo with them that either of them would have to stay 'home' if the other went up? That's classic tactics on how to cover for when an offensive player runs up. Switching of positions on the fly. BB HAD to have told them to do that. I don't believe he was ok with both guys just pushing up field and leaving our defense vulnerable as long as we were fully attacking.

    I agree with you somewhat. He plays guys who have grit, good conditioning... but lack true indisciplined offense first, instincts. We lack a guy in the middle who can play the killer ball, suck in defenders to open up lanes for passing... that is a feilhaber, adu, corona, even nguyen.

    It also doesn't help that Donovan is out and Bradley. two of our strongest of 3 players that start for our NT (Dempsey being the third... and is only at 75 percent).

    I agree. I think having our CB's play a bigger role in adding to the offense would help too.
     
  12. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    That system never worked well.

    I remember the Canada, Jamaica and SF Panama games well. At no point there was control of the center of the field, nor Jones and Bradley looked comfortable in their roles. The goals came about mainly due to some flashes of brains created by the attackers, from side runs.

    First goal versus Canada: long defense-splitting pass from Donovan (middle of the field) to Altidore, who finds space, runs, catches the ball, turns and scores.

    Second goal versus Canada: Donovan slips by their DMs, and instead of passing to a running Agudelo, he opens the ball wide to the right to Jozy, who makes a very nice ground-level cross. Agudelo misses it, but Dempsey score.

    First Goal versus Jamaica: Lichaj good run on the left, sends a cross to Kljestan, but Taylor covers it and heads the ball out of the area. Ball falls to Jones feet, who sends a fiery shot. It would have been saved by Ricketts, but the ball hits Taylor's knee and becomes and own goal.

    Second Goal versus Jamaica: Agudelo runs on the right, sends ball to Donovan who 1-touch returns to empty space ahead of Agudelo's run. Dempsey is left alone by their defenders, so the pass finds him alone and ready to execute Ricketts.

    Goal versus Panama: Toughest game for the USA, they had not controled the midfield at all during the game, and all the wing forays had been parred by the Panamanians. Adu sends a very nice weighed ball to Donovan, who's running full-speed on the right, and Donovan sends a ground-level cross that goes through all four defenders, right to Dempsey's foot who nets it.

    The goals came all from side plays, or from Donovan slipping past their DMs. The only goal in which Jones/Bradley were involved was the first Jamaica goal, but the play came from a Lichaj (good) cross, and the goal itself was due to a deflection.
     
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  13. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    You're not reading what people are saying. I don't know if its stubborness or a lack of understanding. But you are debating a mythical position.

    NOBODY IS SAYING THAT WE SHOULD PLAY EXACTLY THE SAME WAY AS WE DID UNDER BRADLEY.


    There is a disturbing number of people on these boards that think that just because a coach says something to a player, those instructions somehow supersede a player's natural instincts.

    We had two midfielders with freedom to move up and back as they pleased. Whether those players were instructed to provide cover for one another doesn't change the fact that they had the freedom to roam, and at times, would get caught out of position, thus exposing our backline.

    By tweaking that and giving someone a role of pure defensive center mid, it changes that dynamic and reduces the chances of us being caught with our pants down. And it doesn't require 3 DCMs to pull it off either.


    Every single one of those guys would be completely worthless if we continued to play with multiple DMs.

    And Nguyen. Christ almighty man. You can't be serious.


    You really need to drop your obsession with tika taka possession soccer. We need CBs that can defend. If they happen to be able to add to the attack, bonus. If we have CBs that can defend, we don't need 3 DMs to cover for them in the midfield.

    Its a very simple concept that is somehow lost on certain posters who think that a defenders first priority is to pass the ball really well.
     
  14. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Suyuntuy, nowhere in my post did I write that MB and Jones created the goals. All I wrote was that when they were both fit, they combined adequately to hold down the central midfield. Which was enough to allow the US attackers to create some chances. And when Jones and MB were worn down, they couldn't hold the central midfield together and Mexico sliced through the US left, right, and center. Both Jones and MB had/have a reputation of lacking some positional discipline. The much younger MB appears to be maturing in that regard, but the veteran Jones doesn't seem to have it in him, at least when playing with the USMNT.

    I don't want that mixed bag back in the form last seen. All I want is for the US coach to tweak it so that the central midfield is more disciplined and composed. The SINGLE dedicated #6 was a logical step in the right direction. JK's trio of #6 type CMs is serious overkill.
     
  15. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Essentially.... you think if we try BB'ball we'd be better at it because of better instruction on the tactical sense by JK? Having one of a more def. mid stay back?

    Sooooo... what happened vs. Slovenia then? Why is it when we had an attacking offensie similar to what we saw under BB... we also saw the issues wiht a huge HOLE in the middle when they would strip us of the ball and counter attack?

    I think it won't work.
     
  16. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Well, they didn't. I remember in the Panama game all their chances coming through the middle, and the only reason they didn't score was because their finishing was terrible. I remember at around the 24' of the second half, Henriquez(?) turning Mike around as nothing and making a great pass to Cooper, who shot over the bar. In the whole, that day Henriquez and Barahona danced around Bradley, and Jones had only a little better luck with Gomez.

    No, never felt safe with those two under Bob. And now, with the 3 DMs and all, I don't feel safe either. In three "serious" games coached by Klinsmann, the USA has conceded 4 goals. That's more than one goal per game. And that against teams that have no chance (well, except for Jamaica) to go to a world cup final.
     
  17. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    You realize your entire sample size is 90 minutes of game time and how much practice time? This was three days after France. Maybe a more athletic DM like Edu rather than Beckerman to help close space. And having Dempsey in your central midfield rather than forward or on the right is only going to create more space as he doesn't exactly sprint back defensively on a regular basis. Perhaps it deserves a second and third look with different personnel.

    You may be right, but just yelling 'look at Slovenia' without much more analysis just doesn't hold much water.
     
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  18. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You may well be right about the 2nd Panama game. Bradley and Jones were probably wearing down by then. 5th consecutive start in about 15 days, including travel and summer heat. I rememer being quite annoyed with BB for not rotating his dual CMs better. Edu was seriously under-utilized in the Gold Cup. But I thought that Jones and Bradley did fine vs Jamaica and prior. The US seriously out-shot its opponents in most of the Gold Cup, with the biggest problem being finishing.
     
  19. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I am with ya. I wouldn't mind giving it a shot... but I am affraid we'll be back at where we started before JK came....

    BB was even working his way towards what JK is trying to do....

    Either way... I think we're on the right track.....with what is going on right now. Yea, we looked terrible vs. Jamaica... but they still didn't score on the run of play.

    Didn't help our cause either having Donovan out, Bradley out, and Dempsey at 75percent.

    I do miss the days of goals like the one's we scored on Brasil at the confederations cup.....

    But the way we took apart scotland, and how we played good possession, controlled, soccer was a different kind of delicious treat!
     
  20. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    And lets be honest. Bradley was lacking game fitness after sitting on the side watching the Aston Villa horror show for 4.5 months.
     
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  21. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you are correct to point to Beckerman. I thought he had a poor game vs Slovenia, and if you are going to be the solo #6 you can't have a poor game. Edu would have been the better choice, or Jones, but Jones wasn't called for those games, I think. Jones didn't get into JK's good graces until Camp Strudel.
     
  22. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Yes, but that's a bit like that Seinfeld episode of Kramer defeating all the children in the karate school. Mexico wouldn't feel particularly happy of beating the likes of Jamaica and Panama at home, heck, they would worry if they only beat them by one goal!

    I know for the USA home games are almost away games, and that's something that hopefully will change. However, there is a little team mentality, and a big team mentality. Feeling happy that you outshot teams in the 70-120 range of the rankings strikes me as quite little team mentality.

    "Woo hoo, we beat Guadeloupe at home 1-0 and outshot them 13 to 2! Right on, we beat Antigua 3-1 and outshot them 14 to 4!" I'd expect that from a weak team, not the USA. Last World Cup finals, USA was one of the Top 16 teams in the planet! Heck, you're _expected_ to outshoot those teams at home 20-1 or so!
     
  23. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    And many of us have been pointing this out that when we have looked good, it has been more of what Bob was moving toward but had not yet succeeded. Instead, we are trying to reinvent the wheel and trying to qualify for the WC at the same time. JK fans point at 2010-11 with Bradley as a lost year. I look at the last 12 months as a squandered year.

    Neither did we for the last 89:30 minutes.

    NEVER use a May match in the closed season versus a team that has nothing to play for as a measuring stick of where you stand. They are all just looking ahead to beginning Holiday.
     
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  24. Mr Martin

    Mr Martin Member+

    Jun 12, 2002
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Again, don't confuse me going back to those games as examples with me wanting those performances back. The missed opportunities in the 1st Panama game and the Guadeloupe game were hair-pulling bad. But the central midfield duo only needed a marginal readjustment (and the attack would have benefitted from an in-form Donovan, too).

    My whole point in this thread today has been that BB was struggling with updating his system for the new cycle and hadn't found the right answers. I had no problem with BB being replaced after 2010, and especially after the muddled 2011 Gold Cup. 4 years should be enough for most managers, but BB got 5. New blood is useful. But JK didn't need to reinvent the wheel. He should have just made marginal, incremental changes from BB's setup, the key one being the designation of a true #6 to screen the backs.

    And then as a top priority he needed to blood some new defenders fast because everyone knew that the WC 2010 back line was getting old fast.
     
  25. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    Oh my f*cking christ. You need to get over this. This really is the hump you are incapable of overcoming.

    Bradley ball was two central midfielders on a pulley system. NOBODY IS SAYING WE SHOULD PLAY THAT WAY!

    If you can't get past that, there is no hope in even trying to have an intelligent conversation with you.
     

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