Is Zico, not Maradona, the second best player?ever?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Izzy9, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Platini was seen in France as the best French player from his early days in Nancy no doubt about that, as proven by his two 'French player of the year award' in 1976 and 1977. He was indeed considered as the next Kopa (by Kopa himself, who followed him very closely in Nancy, and by Roger Piantoni also).

    Kubala's quote is interesting though the vast majority here in France would disagree massively with his statement that Henri Michel was a better player, especially in 1980 : he was a more complete and more all-round player but without any of the attacking skills Platini had. By 1980 it was a very clear point as at that time Michel had already past his best since several years and that Platini had surpassed him. I'm actually not sure that Kubala was following French football very closely. I also disagree that Platini was defensively very vulnerable : if you watch his games from that time, you can see him tackling, tracking back etc. He was not more vulnerable than any other attacking midfielder.

    Finally, based on level only, it's very likely that Platini was in the top 3-4 for longer than his Juve years. It's only that the world didn't notice it before he joined Italy. As a matter of fact Platini considers his Saint Etienne years as his best individually, especially the 1981-82 season.
    As he said in an interview (with his sense of irony, and a bit of exaggeration) : 'when I played in Nancy, nobody knew me outside of Lorraine, when I played in Saint-Etienne nobody knew me outside France, it's only when I played for Juve that the world took notice of me'.
     
  2. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    But what makes you think Platini's peak was so short ? Again, there's a gap between the reality of facts and the way most people perceive it : the vast majority think Platini's peak in terms of level of play coincides with his Juve years whereas it started 5-6 years before. It's just that when he played in France -and especially in Nancy- Platini was under the radar.
    There's a big difference between him and Zidane : Zidane's peak really coincides with his Juve years. You can see a gap in terms of level between his Bordeaux years and his Juve/Real Madrid years. In Platini's case there is no such gap between his St Etienne years and his Juve years.
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Look at my post ... "losing to Maradona/Zico" in those years ... 78/82 as "unofficial" best player by many pros!

    Remember at the times, only Ballon Dor was available (Zico.Maradona not applicable) and we all know Platini was #5 in 79, #3in 80 and #4 in 81 #9 in 82 (a WC year). I said PEAK form (to their standard) otherwise many would argue Zidane got >10years of worldclass (different story)
     
  4. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    It was not an issue of 'peak form' (he could have been in better form in French football) but instead how the world viewed him during those years. He was seen as the finest French prospect since Kopa, but was still disregarded as being viewed by world pundits, managers, players, ex-players, etc. as one of the 3 most valuable players in the world game.

    His rise to the top (by the media) started sometime around 1983. By the summer of ‘84 he became ‘untouchable’.

    But as I said before, this relatively short period of reign that the media gave him, was enough to catapult his legacy to top-10 all-time – which I find to be impressive when you compare it with other players that are regarded in such a list.



    But it wasn’t only Maradona and Zico during those years. Platini simply was overlooked and put in a category of second tier top players. The consensus at that time and what seems to be beyond dispute is that Rummenigge, Maradona and Zico were considered to be the premier players in the game from 1979-1982.

    Some people had even put Shuster, Keegan, Falcao and Schachner above Platini during that period.

    Take for example what the Algerian NT manager said prior to WC82: “Schachner is one of the best in the world, alongside Rummenigge, Maradona and Zico”. [This article I own as well from the Spanish newspapers that were covering the WC].

    There was no mentioning of Platini. His name simply wasn’t mentioned amongst the top 3. He wasn't receiving the propaganda, or recognition as some of the others.

    That’s why I previously said that the comparison with Zico and Platini was not applicable. Platini himself in Sept. of 1983 said that Zico and Maradona were the best in the world with Zico as number 1. [This was stated in the Italian newspaper of “La Stampa”]. The Spanish tabloid (the one I posted earlier in this thread by author J. A. Calvo, dated Jan. 5, 1984 in Mundo Deportivo) clearly mentioned that many in the world consider Zico to be the second best player behind Maradona.

    When Platini did rise to the very top (again, in the view of the media) Zico was fading with injuries, Rummenigge had lost an edge, but Maradona was still on the top and on his way to Italy which then would become known as the duel - "Platini-Maradona: Who’s better?"

    That’s the way the media portrayed things at that time.
     
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  5. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Great posts here, guys. Been coming back every day for weeks now just to keep reading :thumbsup:
    Regarding Platini's peak... I think I have read in these very boards two statements that contradict each other: I have read that Platini has said that his best form was while at S.E., but also that Platini said, talking about his big idol Cruyff, that the latter is the greatest European footballer of all time because he was only able to reach Cruyff's level during a short period between 1983 and 1985. Can someone clarify for me please, did I misunderstand something?
    BTW, neither statement has to be the absolute truth.. he might have woken up the following morning feeling that his form at Nancy was in fact his best for all I know. I am simply asking if Platini actually said them both.
     
  6. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Kubala was referring to 1978 as I mentioned in my post.

    But a question to you: Considering that Rummenigge and Zico were more glorified than Platini in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s - and once the former two declined, Platini’s status elevated - doesn’t it seem peculiar that Platini is ranked higher than them in most all-time lists?
     
  7. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I’m not aware about what he said was his best form. But what I know is in 1978 he stated that he had the class to substitute Cruyff and that his style was similar to Bobby Charlton.

    I find it odd that he would regard 1983 as reaching the level of Cruyff, since he himself considered Zico and Maradona superior in that year – and he still wasn’t totally viewed as one of the two best.
     
  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Are you insinuating that the prizes made Platini?

    I’ve read some articles around 1985 that states how surprising that Platini started to earn his worldwide recognition when he moved to Italy – considering how a player of his talents had been overlooked in comparison with some others in the early part of the decade, but now all of a sudden he had cemented his legacy among the pantheon of football's greats.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The archive of La Stampa is available on the internet right?
     
  10. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, it was published on 21 September 1983. It says Platini: «Zico è il numero uno»
    "Zico e lo specialista più forte non solo ne' nostro campionato ma nel mondo. Poi viene Maradona"

    Here's the link:http://www.archiviolastampa.it/comp...18/articleid,1031_01_1983_0223_0019_14736450/

    [I don't know if the link will soon get cut off but you can search their site if it does]

    Note: I think he may have been referring to certain qualities that he considered them to have above the rest in the world. In any event, he did not consider himself in their class.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Platini was in 1978 in his home country compared with Cruijff. Didier Six, his team mate, agreed with it and also the national team coach Hidalgo said "he can have the same importance."

    However, Platini himself strongly rejected the comparison. He did it again during the 1982WC.

    He was at that time a humble person.
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yeah, I think he was more humble early on but then by 1986 he proclaimed himself the best player on the planet.
     
  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    No, Platini was a great player who won the Euro84 in a way no other player had previously performed (or since). Just like WC86 puts Maradona ahead of Pele, Euro84 puts Platini ahead of Rummeniege and even Zico.
     
  14. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I guess Platini's individual and collective achievements between 1983 and 1985-86 were spectacular enough to overshadow a bit Rummenigge's illustrious carreer in most people's mind. Euro84 in particular was a defining moment for Platini and cemented his status. Rummenigge was greatly effective, consistent and had a great longevity but Platini's peak was higher probably. There's also the way they played : maybe people prefered Platini's effortless, elegant and 'romantic' style to Rummenigge's more unspectacular football.

    The case of Zico is different and I don't really have an answer to this. I've always thought that Zico and Platini were 'twin players' in terms of ability and that it's a bit unfair that Platini is generally ranked higher. Maybe the reason is that all-time list are often euro-centrists ? Platini surely benefited from playing in a top-team (Juve) that was covered a lot by the medias whereas when Zico played in Europe he played for a mid-table team (and for only two years additionally). That probably influenced people's opinion. I guess Zico is ranked higher than Platini in South America ?
     
  15. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    To be exact he said that what Cruyff did on the pitch at the age of 20 himself was not able to do the same until the age of 30 (ie... in 1985). That was in a L'Equipe interview in 2008 I think.
    There's surely a bit of exaggeration in it as in 1985 Platini was at the peak of his carreer since several years but I think it perfectly underlines how he sees Cruyff. He still considers him as the best player ever with Pele. When asked about Maradona and Zico, he always answers that he was equal to them, never feeling to be inferior to them when they met on the field.
    He also said that he played his best football in Saint-Etienne as he learned how to win there and as he was completely free on the field. According to him in Italy he became physically stronger and tactically better but his game lost some fantasy there.
     
  16. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Fair or not, that could be one reason.

    But I must remind you gentlemen that at that time in terms of the individual qualities of the player, neither Rummenigge nor Zico were considered inferior – in fact they were considered more valuable since Platini had been virtually overlooked until 1983.

    We have to put things into the contexts of that time. We have to ask ourselves this question: why was Zico and Rummenigge more valuable than Platini in the eyes of many managers and players prior to 1983?

    Clearly Platini had already been noticed for many years by then, and the French press had sold his image to the world – something which he himself acknowledged in 1978 – but didn’t like. He was regarded as one of the top talents in Europe, an idol in Nancy, where he said they didn’t let him live in peace because of the popularity that he had obtained – but despite this, he still was disregarded in the same class as some of the others and even considered no higher than some other second tier world stars at that time.

    All indications point to us that in the eyes of the pros and media some players were considered vastly superior to him. He was never destined to be the all-time top 10 great that he eventually became.

    That's why his leap from being overshadowed by those two (and some others) to conquering a position higher than them in most all-time lists is impressive but also questionable.

    Again, until sometime around 1983 this wasn't even a debate - which is why I (among other reasons) never saw this as a comparison.

    Absolutely. Take for example the situations of Di Stefano and Puskas: had they not moved to the west of Europe, their names would never have transcended past the barriers of their own countries.

    Nowadays you crack open a European encyclopedia book of football and you read at least 1-page dedicated to them in the lists of Legends. But during Di Stefano’s era, the likes of Pedernera and Moreno were classified higher than him by many Argentine experts and players - and they even voted Moreno as the greatest Argentine player in the history in 1980. The same situation applies with the Hungarian. For many old-timers in that country, György Orth was unsurpassable and better than Puskas. In contrast, you’ll be hard-pressed if you can find their names in those European history books.

    [The media has the power to elevate someone or make them disappear].

    But despite this, in his first season, many in the world viewed him as one of the two best players in the game. Why? Because Zico's reputation (and his exploits at that time) had already been set in stone.

    I'm afraid that even in Brazil, Platini was voted higher in some official list of Placar's 100 Craques do Século in 1999. For the rest of the Americas, I don't know.

    It's odd since in 1979 he did not mention Pele, but only Cruyff. [documented in the magazine of El Grafico which is in my possession].

    It’s interesting what he says now because in 1983 he was conceding ground to them. Of course by 1986, supported by the world press, he felt untouchable and said what I mentioned in previous posts.


    Nowadays anyone can have an opinion, and as generations change, new historians will write what they feel is necessary - and perhaps in 50 years these players will be forgotten - but during their time they were considered the best.
     
  17. United_xxx

    United_xxx Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    Thailand
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I think Zico is forgotten by many because he didn't have best moments in the biggest tournaments like worldcup or Euro. For example, Platini had Euro84, Marodana had worldcup 86 and perhap 90 etc. Some might say that he was great at worldcup82 but Rossi totally eclipsed him in that tournament.

    Likewise, I think Messi and CR could suffer the same in the all-time ranking if they don't produce memorable performance in any worldcup or euro.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Rummenigge was hyped between 1978 and 1982, when the 'talking class' (often dominanted by the Anglo-German axis) hyped the Bundesliga. But if you look at the years between 1978 and 1984, roughly the peak years of Rummenigge, German teams won one European Cup (1983, which was an upset and unfair result with ugly football), two UEFA Cups (1979, 1980) and no Cup Winners Cup. Not very spectacular if you compare it with the results of the English teams at that era. And more important: Rummenigge won nothing in his peak years. Platini won one European Cup, one Cup Winners Cup and also one Intercontinental Cup.

    Platini was not only the better player, his club career had also a higher peak. Furthermore, Platini was important in reviving the game of football - euro84 was a big success and a giant leap in popularizing the competition. Rummenigge on the other hand, epitomized in some ways the 'weak era' of his age.

    The only thing that Rummenigge had and Platini hasn't is playing in two World Cup finals. But Platini had in 1986 the hardest route of all superstars and the events in 1982 are on the same category as Hungary1954 in terms of injustices.
     
  19. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    I know knocking the Bundesliga is a favorite pasttime of yours, I am actually surprised you didn't mention that it was a trigger-happy league this time (the number of goals scored says nothing about the quality of a league, for example the Greek league had a far lower goal average than the Bundesliga if I remember correctly but hardly anyone would see that as a sign of higher quality).

    Between 1977 and 1985, the Bundesliga champions reached the European Champions Cup final in 1977, 1980, 1982 and 1983. Not a bad showing, even if they only won it once. They also reached the semi final of that competition in 1979 and 1981. Everytime they met an English team however, it resulted in a defeat.

    One shall not forget however that in 1980 all four semi finalists of the UEFA Cup were Bundesliga teams and in 1979 they had three semi finalists. At the same time, all four English teams (1979-80) had been eliminated by the second round.

    Of course there are occasions were Bundesliga clubs had the same fate (1983-84 for example). But overall the Bundesliga did very well between 1975 and 1985. While they didn't win as many trophies as English clubs, overall their results in all games against all opponents were better. So the Bundesliga was definitely in the Top 2 in that span ahead of Spain and Italy.

    I just recently watched the 1983 European Cup final - what is your problem with that?
     
  20. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Regarding Rummenigge's standing today: as has been mentioned, Platini and Maradona both excelled in big tournaments like no other player before them or after them. Rummenigge never achieved that (his best outing Euro 1980 is mediocre in the big picture). He was unlucky to be carrying an injury through the tournament in 1982 but other players have suffered the same fate. Zico at least was part of one of the most cherished teams of all-time (Brazil 1982), Rummenigge was part of one of the least liked teams of all times (Germany 1982). Also, when he played in Italy he was not a success like Platini, Maradona or later van Basten. He was just one among many foreign star players. He also failed to achieve something with his club when he was the big star (1981 and 1982 European Cup). All this taken into account, Rummenigge not being as highly regarded today as he was during his height is no surprise at all.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It works always well to shoot the messenger.

    The problem with you is that you are now extending the era. The peak of Rummenigge was not 1977-1985 but 1978-1984, at most. Maybe it already ended in 1982.

    No I did not mention it was a trigger-happy league because, after consideration, the stats were during his peak no more than a side-argument in the debate.

    Yes, it is a favorite 'pasttime', just as you have your agendas.

    In those years the head to head against other first tier ('big four') nations was this:

    European Cup:
    Germany - England 0:5
    Germany - Spain 2:0
    Germany - Italy 1:0

    Cup Winners Cup:
    Germany - England 1:1
    Germany - Spain 0:1

    Uefa Cup:
    Germany - Italy 4:1
    Germany - England 1:3
    Germany - Spain 3:0

    In that respect, it should be noted that not every country and team took the UEFA Cup very serious (and as sort of self-criticism, when AZ reached in 1981 the UEFA Cup final this was also noted in the press - not everyone in Europe saw the competition as a priority).

    But most important: Platini won on his own an equal amount of club trophies as #1 ranked Germany in the whole 1978-1984 timespan, and with a legendary team as opposed to Eintracht Frankfurt (with Cha Bum Ka as main star) and post-Simonsen Gladbach.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Also funny, but beyond the scope of this era, is that Italy became #1 after the Heisel-ban and not Germany. And that while the infamous foreigner ban was already lifted in 1980.

    What about Pelé in 1970 with 4 goals and 5 assists?
     
  23. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Could it be that Platini was actually quite simply underrated outside France ? Playing in a -relatively- second tier league and in a second tier NT (until 1982) probably influenced pros and medias views. Kubala's quote you mentioned earlier is a good evidence of the way he was seen inside and outside France. On the contrary other names like Zico and Rummenigge certainly benefitted from playing in big clubs and well-established NT that allowed them to set their reputation in stone way earlier than Platini did by winning titles. The best evidence he was underrated is that his reputation almost immediately elevated when he joined Juve whereas his level of play was the same as during his St Etienne days. That's why I think he was already virtually a top 3-4 player based of his level of play from the late 70's, despite all the medias and pros said at the time outside France.


    Absolutely, whereas in the same time, Platini had yet to set his reputation outside France. But in reality, their levels were probably similar at that moment.

    That's weird... and pretty much unfair to say the least.

    He ranks Cruyff higher. When asked who was better than him in the history of the game, he instantly answered Cruyff. When the journalist said : 'what about Pele ?' he answered : 'Pele ? Why Pele ?' before agreeing that Pele was better than him... I think he was refering to players he actually saw, hence no Di Stefano, Puskas etc. However when Puskas died I think he said that he may have been the greatest European player ever. I should check that however.



    I saw what he said in 1983 but what did he really think by saying that ? My opinion is that he conceded ground to them in the sense that he knew that both had already proved themselves more than he did and that himself had to make similar exploits and achievements outside France to be considered on par with them. Now I'm not sure that in that year 1983 he sincerely thought that pound for pound he was inferior to them on the field. Remember the guy has a massive ego... When asked by a journalist recently what he thought about his Juve years, he simply answered, as you said : 'between 1983 and 1986 I was untouchable'...
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'll play a bit the devil's advocate:

    Cruyff is often ranked ahead of him but his peak fame was also relatively short (1971-1975). Some others like George Best, the hyped Glanville ranks Best above Platini, are even the embodiment of a short peak.

    By the way, in the 1978-1982 period this was the head to head against other top nations in club competitions - when Platini reached his physical prime and played in France:

    European Cup:
    France - Spain 0:1
    France - Italy 0:1

    Cup Winners Cup:
    France - England 0:1
    France - Spain 0:2

    Uefa Cup:
    France - England 1:1
    France - Italy 2:0
    France - Germany 2:3


    Not bad, as far as the UEFA Cup is concerned
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    About the things in bold:

    1) Which winning star players do you think of?
    2) Rummenigge was 28 and 11 months old when he played his first Italian league match in September 1984. Maybe that was a bit too old, considering his playing style. It was for sure older when Maradona and Van Basten made their first steps.
     

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