Fire Anselmi!

Discussion in 'Toronto FC' started by crazypete13, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. crazypete13

    crazypete13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 7, 2007
    A walk from BMO
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Figured we could use a nice handy thread for all the inevitable kvetching over MLSE management, and general bitching about TFC brass.

    I, for one, have finally gone full smenge and am openly critical of the piss-poor job that TFC management has done since 2007 to build a team that can compete in MLS.

    I also think it's highly unlikely that the COO of MLSE would actually be fired, but that shouldn't stop us from putting together a nice anti-resume of all the missteps and poor decisions that have got us to where we are now.

    Anything from the ineptness of MoJo, to the current season is fair game - have at it.
     
  2. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Every time I think of how inept mlse is, it has me thinking that maybe, just maybe smenge was right all along. And that pains me a little deep down inside.

    Anyway, one of my biggest beefs is that there is no accountability. We've had 6 years, 7 coaches and no playoff spots. At what point does the management start taking responsibility? It seems that the only thing that they do is hire and fire coaches. This one didn't work out, so just hire another one and hope that it works out better.

    On a side note, I'm also kinda cheezed at Toronto media for not asking tougher questions at the last press release regarding management accountability.

    BTW - mods, feel free to move over any of my past rants to this forum if you wish.
     
  3. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Here is how I picture TFC management meetings going:

    Winter: We need a 4-3-3 formation

    Mariner: No, we need a 4-4-2 formation

    Anselmi: Duh, stop talking all those numbers. It's making my head hurt

    Winter: We need a 4-3-3 formation to play Dutch-style football

    Mariner: We need a 4-4-2 formation to win in the MLS

    Anselmi: Duh, I watched my 8-year old kid play soccer the other day. They didn't play any formations. Everybody just chased after the ball. And they won. That could work for us too!
     
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  4. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    alright - another rant (and I know I've mentioned this elsewhere). Throughout TFC's history, it seems we've had tons of conflicts going on. Mariner and Winter clearly had different visions of how to build a team. Clearly there were issues between MoJo and Carver. Probably between MoJo and Cummins too. And we've heard so many times about divides in the dressing room. So, where was MLSE management in all of this? When there are conflicts such as these that are creating huge problems on the field, good management needs to step in and put a stop to it. Yet they seem to let it happen again and again and do nothing about it.
     
  5. crazypete13

    crazypete13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 7, 2007
    A walk from BMO
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    I had you in mind when I fired this thread up, so rant away.

    My biggest issue is that the direction above PB and the day-to-day management of the club has been without vision for the on-field product, at least in the short term. I actually like what they are doing with the training facility and academy, but man, the senior squad has been a craptacular shambolic mess at worst and middling ineffective at best.

    Looking back, I think the Klinsmann-as-consultant move was no better than hiring MoJo, because the management team was woefully incompetent at being able to evaluate their performance or in the case of Klinsmann, able to properly judge whether the recommendations were sound.

    The upshot of all this, is that I'm seriously reconsidering whether it's worth re-upping for seasons going forward - as I think the only way to get these fools to notice is by not giving them any cash upfront - and to make that clear to the ticket rep as to why I'm not renewing.
     
  6. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    instead of paying a shitload for a consultant who they could misinterpret, they should have given the keys to the organization to someone who's highly knowledgeable about soccer and has extensive experience in NA. In fact they could do that now without much trouble at all since the person who fits that description is running our academy. They need one guy who knows what he's doing to do all the hiring. That way you don't end up with five different people with different agendas with no one clearly in charge. As is the chain of command of this club looks more like a never ending flow chart than a pyramid. We need someone who doesn't hire the first person to walk into their office as the next coach with a completely different system.

    Of course none of that will ever happen
     
  7. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Awesome! He's a part of the lexicon now.
     
  8. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Do you have any suggested names?

    Not trying to be difficult but the boards I visit seemed to react pretty positively to the Klinsman consultant thing. The theory being that it was a positive admission by management that perhaps they did not have the contacts/skillsets/evaluation tools to determine who the right guy is for the job. Now that the recommended hire did not work out, it was a stupid move?

    In fact, I remember posting on a couple of boards a "WTF" reaction when Gerry Dobson interviewed Klinsman part way through his assignment. The interview was about the progress of a) finding the guy and b) revamping the structure of TFC. I posted about my shock/surprise/anger that the interview took place poolside at Klinsman's place in California. I could not believe he was not in Toronto doing the job. Overall (on the 2 or 3 boards I posted about it on) I was told to shut up and stop being such a whinging, negative, guy. Klinsy would get it done.

    The point is, it is all too easy for us as fans (individually or in the collective) to crap over decisions/actions in hindsight........sometimes the same decisions that we rave about in the moment.
     
  9. Jon Snow

    Jon Snow New Member

    Jul 13, 2012
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Seems like there is only selective accountability. For the coaches & the players. Everyone above them forget about it. If you go on a drinking bender or ask for DP money that was promised to you, you are out of here. If you screw up at your job time & time again, you get a free pass.

    The Klinsman hiring was a very flashy thing that alot of people fell for but it pointed to the lack of experience & infastructure within the front office. You dont have anybody to hire & put a new regime in place yourself? Who the hell judges your personel & whether or not they are doing a good job? Mr. Tom "I dont do soccer moves" Anselmi?

    MLSE brought in their crony from day 1 & the franchise has been suffering for it ever since. We have a captain of the ship that doesnt know how to sail.
     
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  10. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    what he said.

    Plus I like your effective use of the word 'craptacular' in a sentence.
     
  11. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    yeah, I was implying Rongen.

    i understand that it seemed like the right thing to do at the time since the organization, but then when things weren't going well, there was no one at the top with a brain to know what to do if that happened. I don't see why we couldn't have hired a more permanent version of Klinsman
     
  12. scarborotfcfan

    May 26, 2008
    Pick a philosophy and stick to it. I was critical of the switch from Winter to Mariner because I liked his plan better but given that it's done, the best thing to do is fire everyone who was part of the Winter plan and hand Mariner the keys and give him three years to build something (the three years Winter was supposed to have). It's the lack of clarity with a clear plan and constant changes that's the problem.
     
  13. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    do you trust Mariner's kick and run system to work for the long term?
    You want the academy to play kick and run rather than learn pass and move skills?
    The leftovers from the Winter era have no control over the first team at all. They're confined to the academy, giving the fans a small glimmer of hope for the future. Right now there's no reason to get rid of them.
     
  14. scarborotfcfan

    May 26, 2008
    Mariner's kick-and-run system doesn't have the potential to make TFC a contending team but with time, they can be decent and moderately successful. If you want to be a contending team, you have to do something more complex than that, it's too predictable and cautious. That being said, you can't have the big club playing a different style than the academy. At what point does it change? The first few players to come out of the academy will be coached by Mariner. They will be told to forget what they learned for the whole time they've been at the academy, switch styles and then in three or four years, go back to Winter's system? That's a recipe for disaster. In an ideal world, either Winter wasn't let go or someone with the same philosophy would be brought in.

    I suppose if Mariner was an interim guy and they intend to bring in someone to bring back the 4-3-3 at the start of next season, we can salvage the academy plan but we would have wasted a half season where the players on the big club could have been increasing their familiarity with it. If the long-term plan is still 4-3-3, how long can you keep Mariner in charge? Unless Mariner is looking to switch to 4-3-3 when the time is right? Is he prepared to undergo the growing pains of a couple of losing seasons while players learn it knowing that Winter was fired for the same thing? And when would the right time be for the switch? I just see too many problems with the transition.
     
  15. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Here is the MLSE way of managing TFC:
    1. Hire coach
    2. Believe everything coach says
    3. Give coach the freedom to do whatever he wants
    4. Let coach clear out all players that the previous coach brought in rebuild from scratch
    5. When team underperforms, fire coach
    6. Repeat step 1

    This is why I keep saying the issue isn't whether Winter or Mariner would make a better coach. The bigger issue is that TFC management is doing the same thing over and over again and so we will continue to rebuild this team again and again.

    I agree that having a Klinsman-like person in place would have resolved a lot of the issues TFC was facing. Clearly there was a conflict between how Winter/BDK wanted to build the team and how Mariner/Cochrane did. But Anselmi doesn't know enough about the game to recognize the problems that were going on. When Winter struggled through the first part of this season, perhaps the solution would have been to bring in a different coach that could work in the same system, but Anselmi is incapable of doing that. All he can do is look at wins and losses and either fire the coach or not fire the coach.

    Sure Mariner has got a few ok results so far. And he may do well with the team, who knows. But TFC is still a long way away from being a playoff contender and even farther away from being a championship-winning team. So what happens when Mariner doesn't get the results that they want? Repeat the process yet again?
     
  16. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Interesting thought....on paper he has the experience but no other club has appointed him as a manager since the disastrous first 10 games of Chivas USA's existance. Is that because he is tainted or because he has decided he prefers academy type work?


    That is kinda my point......the move was, generally, treated postively. {paraphrase} "Finally those clowns realize they don't know how to find a coach/manager in this game and have given the job to someone that does".....since the hiring/structure did not "work" a lot of those same people are throwing {paraphrase} "those clowns are so inept they had to hire a consultant to do their jobs" at them.

    The guys at MLSE are big boys with, I imagin, thick skin. I just, sometimes, think there is absolutely nothing they could do that would be seen as competent by some of the fan base.
     
  17. Jon Snow

    Jon Snow New Member

    Jul 13, 2012
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Theres no way the people in the front office are thick skinned. In fact you could make a pretty sound arguement for the opposite. The constant turnover rate of the plans, players & coaches tells you all you need to know.

    Anselmi & the rest of the FO operate TFC like they are scared. They were unprepared for how the team was going to be embraced & now all they do is try to do is maintain everything through constant turnover. The irony is that the way they have run the team is leading to the very thing they are scared of in the first place, which is fans walking away.
     
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  18. BHTC Mike

    BHTC Mike Member+

    Apr 12, 2006
    Burlington, ON
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    So you support the appointment of Paul Mariner for the same reasons I do? ;)

    He's famous, they'd heard of him, and there was a glamour to being associated with him. Credentials were thin (success with Germany/disaster at Bayern), he had a superficial knowledge of MLS, and wasn't, like you point out, going to be an on the ground guy in Toronto.

    He took the results of a marketing survey and some discussions with, in his own words, "Tom and the Board," and reguritated back a "plan" that was completely divorced from the realities of building a squad or competing in MLS. The club took that and turned it into a whole bunch of marketing material and hired Aron Winter.

    Somehow, some people are still so invested in this inorganic approach to building identity and culture at a soccer club that they're raging against the "dangers" of giving an expereinced MLS guy like Paul Mariner an opportunity to maybe actually turn TFC into a successful MLS club... even when he's dramatically improved results!

    I've said it before but sometimes we really do deserve what we get.

    I remember your frustration during those days. You weren't the only one.

    As I implied above I was deeply suspicious of the PR aspects of the Klinsmann appointment and the pace of hiring a full time replacement that fall. It was mind boggling. Instead of just going out, identifying 3 to 5 suitable candidates, giving one of them the job, and letting them go about the business of preparing TFC to compete in 2011 - which there was plenty of time and easily enough playing assets for - we wasted months preparing a "vision" that ended up making the team worse for two consecutive seasons.* We had to endure a year of excuses about "the horrible roster Mo and Preki left" (even though that horrible roster beat Cruz Azul and contained useful, moldeable MLS pieces like Stefan Frei, Nick LaBrocca, Chad Barrett, Dan Gargan, Nana Attakora, and (pre-injury) Adrian Cann) spent "learing the system."(???) We got to watch other useful MLS players like Tony Tchani and Alan Gordon pass through underappreciated.

    And then we lost the first nine games of the next year!

    TWO WHOLE SEASONS WASTED and we're only starting to dig our way out of that hole now! Considering how short of a time he's been in the job, how tough the schedule he's faced has been, and how little he's been able to add to the roster what Paul Mariner has already achieved is nothing short of miraculous. Yet he's being criticized because the style of play - from a group that were "the worst team in the world" two months ago - doesn't meet the ideological or aesthetic expectations of a not insignificant portion of our active fan base. Madness.

    To the broader point of this thread: the story of TFC's failure has been the story of terrible hires.

    Failure #1
    Mo in 2006 did not have a good reputation as a leader around MLS. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thought he should be given the keys to an entire organization with no soccer knowledge above him. He needed to be on a suitably short leash and never should have been allowed to promote himself and hire his own replacement in 2008.

    Failure #2
    Though not a direct hire of senior management I rate John Carver as Mo's single biggest mistake. I have more than a few ideas about why he thought it a good idea to hire foreign coach, more known as an assistant in his career, with no knowledge of MLS or North American soccer. In the end he turned out to be compeletely unsuited to the task of coaching in the league - he came across as borderline disdainful of MLS by the end yet supporters applauded him for it - and removed himself.

    Failure #3
    Cummins, Preki, and Dasovic weren't sexy enough for season ticket sales so we'll never know if they could have been the right choice. None were given a fair chance or the full support and endorsement of senior management. Cummins had the best PPG of any TFC coach (though he also had the most talented squad) but was too green. Preki kept the team competitive in a rebuilding year and got further in the CCL than the two previous incumbents but was too boring, or too mean, or too tied to Mo's funny dealing depending on how you see things and who you believe. Dasovic was barely in charge and impossible to get a read on but too Canadian (and thus not glamourous enough for seat renewals) to get the job. Clearly, after burning through these three meant it was time for...

    Failure #4
    Outsourcing a question as fundamental as vision and culture to a part time, unaccountable consultant and confusing the results of a marketing survey - essentially a fan wish list - for an organic soccer identity developed in house through years of trial and error.

    Failure #5
    Hiring another more or less rookie manager with no knowledge of MLS or North American soccer and tasking him with the ridiculous objective of playing winning, beautiful, attacking possession soccer in today's MLS. Rather than getting someone who could experiment, evolve, and innovate their own solution to squad building and tactics a top down, marketing driven philosophy was sold as the (All for) "One True Way" that would lead to success now and in the future.

    It's saddest because TFC acted like importing a culture was equal to innovation and that all an MLS team needed to play better football was better ideas from a better football culture (and a few lower tier schlub imports who could run rings around the naive locals). It's not like this hadn't been tried before in places like LA in 2008, Chicago in 2010, and, most famously, most ineptly, and most equivalent to what we sad we were going to do, Chivas in 2005. NONE OF THIS WAS NEW. It had been tried before and failed before around the league. The arrogance implicit in the idea that successful MLS teams weren't already taking the best ideas about football from other cultures and atttempting to adapt them, where they could successfully, and needed to be taught how to play better football BY TF-fricken'-C was breathtaking.

    And people still act like it was a step foward!

    Failure #6?
    After falling into a possibly good hire in Mariner - a hire that would have been applauded around the league in 2006 or late 2008 - there's an entire faction of TFC's fan base already agitating against him and waiting to pounce on any losing or winless skid, which will happpen, as "proof" that his "archaic English long ball style" can't work. Others are so angry at Tom Anselmi and co. or lump Mariner in with Failure #5 (even though he was clearly one of the ones inside the organization arguing for pragmatism about what was achieveable) that they want to just blow the whole thing up AGAIN and pitch the baby with the bathwater.

    Does Tom Anselmi deserve to be held accountable for all of the above AND for the way TFC's FO abused the great relationship they were handed with an unforseeably large and loyal support?

    YES!

    Should TFC have a real North American soccer guy between head coach/technical director and the MLSE board who can manage that relationship, provide oversight, and establish a long term vision organically from INSIDE the club?

    YES!

    But here's the crazy thing: if he does well enough I'D PUT PAUL MARINER IN THAT ROLE and be as happy with him as I would be with anyone we could get from outside the club! If he crashes and burns obviously it wouldn't be on but he's not really a young guy anymore and, in 3 to 5 years, if he manages to be reasonably successful - meaningful playoff appearances, competitive even in "bad" years, no horrific seasons - he's exactly the sort of guy, with a depth of experience at two MLS clubs, you'd look to hire from outside the organization. Let him identify the next young up and coming coach from inside the league who deserves a shot at leading an MLS team. This is a young league, we're gonna have experimental coaches for a long time as it develops roots and its own culture. Having someone with, by that point, Mariner's experience in a mentor role would be an execellent arrangement.

    The funniest part? I think MLSE sorta gets this. That's what they wanted to do with Mo and the coaching/management cadre of Dasovic, Bent, and Brennan. Maybe even Robinson was being targetted join that groupe before some combination of Preki, Cummins, or Mo ruined that relationship. The problem was they just had the (obviously) wrong guy in Mo. They probably saw Aron Winter in that role one day too "plan 2" had worked out.

    So TFC find themselves crossroads once again. They can pitch Mariner and bring in someone from outside again or muddle along and see what happens before making any rash decisions. I know what I want.

    Forza Mariner.

    *One incredible, improbable, epic Champions League run excepted.
     
  19. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    bhtc mike - I think I'll wait for the coles note version of your post to come out. actually, even then I don't think I'd read it because I find your point of view hypocritical. When you talk about Preki you talk about how he wasn't given the support of management and how he was removed before he got the chance to execute his vision. Yet both of these statements are true about Winter, who you consider a failure. You go on about Preki's CCL run which was nowhere near Winter's. And just a reminder, that TFC wasn't a playoff team under Preki either.

    Do you not see that what happened with Winter is the same thing as what happened with your beloved Preki?

    It's also hard to take your post seriously when you talk about the glory days of when we had Dan Gargan on our team.
     
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  20. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada

    This is exactly it. MLSE management cares far too much about what the fans think. That's why they signed JDG. That's why they signed ALi Gerba. Because that is what (at least they thought) the fans were calling out for. Whether those moves made sense is an entirely different matter.

    Unfortunately, all that MLSE management knows how to do is turnover the squad or replace the manager. I hear people on this board saying "Well, Winter started off the season 0-9, they had to do something...". That may be true but that something didn't necessarily have to be "start over from scratch yet again". They could have looked more into WHY the team was 0-9. Was it the coach, the system, the players, the staff, the injuries, the divide between the coach and the GM? Instead they just went with the only thing they knew how to do - fire, replace and rebuild.
     
  21. BHTC Mike

    BHTC Mike Member+

    Apr 12, 2006
    Burlington, ON
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Winter didn't get a chance?

    Aron Winter got 44 league games in charge of TFC. He won 7. What was the team's goal difference in league play during his time in charge? He lost home games 3-0, 6-2, and 3-0 (again), with many of those goals being in the first half, not while the team was chasing the game and taking chances late, in his time in charge. He lost five consecutive home league games to start his second year in charge and was winless in 7 overall at home before the team beat Montreal on May 9th.

    Preki got about half the number of league games in charge with 24. He also won 7. His team was diabolical on the road but, after being handed a far worse situation with an aging over the salary budget team that most of our support AND senior management don't understand to this day, stayed in playoff contention until late summer on the back of a months long home unbeaten streak. He was fired after a 6 game league winless skid that included his only home losses EVER in any competition (while Barrett and Santos were out injured) and some CCL results during the stretch.

    Seriously, you can argue aesthetics. We played some really terribly ugly football under Preki but I wasn't nearly as impressed with the quality of play under Winter as some people were. But, in terms of results, there's no comparison.

    In terms of "support from senior management" I was actually talking more about Cummins but still think it applies to Preki and Dasovic.

    Winter was given the keys to the organization. He was the top guy which is why he was ultimately the one let go when things went worse than sour. There were reported disputes with Paul Mariner and maybe he was not allowed to get rid of him but nothing indicates that Winter didn't have the final say on the roster. The team traded away Tony Tchani, Alan Gordon, Jacob Peterson, Nana Attakora, and Dan Gargan after Winter publically declared that he didn't have enough quality and "now I start making some trades." He was allowed to bring in two major DP signings one of whom is on a bigger contract than any TFC player ever. He had to deal with the DeRo fallout (and all of the previous management and senior management's mistakes there) but, other than that, it was his team and he was afforded an entire year of no expectations to rebuild without job pressure.

    Preki was Mo's hire and was fired because of it. There have always been rumors that he wanted Julian and DeRo jettisoned but was not allowed. (Aside: can you imagine we bought out JDG in advance of 2010 rather than slogging it out two and a half more years of inconsistent performance?) He was given Mista as a short term fix seemingly regardless of his opinion of the player and possibly told he had to play him. HE claimed he was never given full authority and implied that every decision during his time in charge was a political negotiation between factions. I'm still not sure how much of that was true and how much was just sour grapes CYA. Management was clearly never on side with his program of tear down and rebuild from the back forward and Tom Anselmi said as much in the fall of 2010.

    Preki was in charge for 4 Champions League games. His record was one away draw, against better opponents, worse than Winter's first four. (Aside 2: Winter's most underrated result was the away win in Panama. Tauro were a better team than they got credit for and that win, though incredibly ugly and having little to do with posssession tactics, had as much to do with TFC advancing as the result in Dallas.) Under Preki, TFC beat a better Central American team than we've ever played before or since over two legs. They BEAT a Mexican team at home (convincingly) and, after he was let go, his team of "untalented plumbers", ground out a draw in Mexico. Neither of those results - home wins and away draws against a Mexican team - were ever equalled in four chances by Winter.

    Winter's team went further in the competition than Preki's because late-2010 RSL were a far better team than late-2011 Dallas or early-2012 LA. That's the nature of knockout tournaments and why they're a poor judge of a team's overall quality. No one can take our semifinal appearance away and I'll always credit Winter with that run and remember him fondly for it, I'd thank him personally if I got the chance, but to ignore context and opposition is foolish.

    Regardless, you continue to misconstrue my points about Preki but I've got to break this into two parts already.
     
  22. BHTC Mike

    BHTC Mike Member+

    Apr 12, 2006
    Burlington, ON
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Actually, for a long time, until the injuries to Barrett and Santos, they were. At no point in Winter's longer tenure were TFC ever a playoff team or on playoff pace. Even if you give Winter his best stretch in late-2011 only the team is only on a marginally playoff contending PPG.

    And if there's any quote that explains the six year malaise at TFC it's this one.

    We, as a club and a fan base, consistently undervalue the Dan Gargans of MLS. He doesn't need to be a PotY candidate and face of the marketing but those sort of players, domestics of limited technical ability but who can do a job, on non-stupid money, perform a role on every successful MLS club. Take a look at the roster of a Bruce Arena, Sigi Schmid, Frank Yallop, or Dom Kinnear some time. San Jose is in first place, with more points already than TFC has ever got, and most TFC fans "knowledgeable fan base" wouldn't recognize three quarters of their starting line-up in the street. Some people are already running down Weideman before he's even had a chance.

    Have you looked at Dan Gargan recently? He's an occasional starter and regular sub on a playoff team. After Dan Gargan was traded to Chicago (and scored on us to kick off their good spell) they've been a consistently upper half team who were among the hottest in the league in the second half of 2011.

    It's the same story with far too many former TFCers; Americans in particular. The only one I couldn't bring myself to mention in that company is Jacob Peterson because I think he got a long enough shot in T.O. with little return and because of his comments since leaving. It's infuriating, for multiple reasons, to see him as a regular contributor on a Conference leading KC team.

    When TFC surrounds a few game changing players with a bunch of Dan Gargans and gives them time to gel they might finally start to be a relevant team in this league. Aron Winter didn't understand that and were now left undoing his damage. Mo did but just sucked at talent evaluation, contract negotiation, and couldn't stop meddling either as a coach or manager.

    Paul Mariner MIGHT be the right guy. He's got the background, credentials, and knowledge it takes to be successful in this league. We'll find out if he's got the demeanour, transfer savvy, ideas, and leadership over the next year. For once, I'm excited to find out rather than dreading the outcome.

    Forza Mariner.
     
  23. ArteEtLabore

    ArteEtLabore Member

    Dec 16, 2006
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The bottom line is that they didnt make the playoffs with preki and they didnt make them with winter. "well, they were on their way to making it" doesnt cut it.

    Anyway, the issue isnt which of our 7 coaches is the best. The issue is that we've had 7 coaches. The issue isnt whether a line up with gargan and santos is better an a lineup with frings and koevermans.the issue is that the revolving door has been the one constant thoughout the team's history. That is what is killing this team. No team has ever been successful in mls by continually rebuilding.
     
  24. crazypete13

    crazypete13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 7, 2007
    A walk from BMO
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    BHTC Mike

    This is exactly the type of information people tend to forget about TFC - as I've found that one bad season bleeds into another which clouds my memory of the specifics you've documented. I for one, forget a lot of the hue and cry from the fan base you've documented here. I don't agree with all the things you say about Mariner - though mostly that has to do with my skepticism that anything has changed to allow him to succeed as you laid out.

    ArteEtLabore

    I think that focusing on the playoffs and not cheering too wildly until we see some actual MLS results is a very reasonable position. I also think that blind faith in what Mariner is doing and giving him carte blanche leads us to the same problems we've seen with every manager before him. I'm going with the wait-and-see approach, hoping that Mariner can pull together a solid squad that does its darnedest to make the playoffs this season.

    Ultimately though, I think a lot of the problems with the front office are still there, and I don't think this is fixed until we get a competent soccer executive, which is why I started this thread.
     
  25. TOareaFan

    TOareaFan Member+

    Jun 19, 2008
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    can you give us a hint as to who that might be? or, at least, what the profile of that person would be? Not being a jerk (well, not intentionally) but it is not clear to me what people mean when they say that.
     

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