Why Do Many Consider This Current Era "weak"?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by laudrup_10, May 4, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I looked for some facts today to investigate whether this might be correct. It is indeed true that the percentage of income invested in the education system has dropped. This is visible in the closing of youth teams in order to save money.
    A good example of the disincentive to invest in the education system is the current story aroundthe Belgian Jan Vertonghen, who is educated at Ajax (because Belgium has deteriorated even more so there was an incentive to move to Ajax at an early age). He was one of the best players in the Dutch league but Tottenham only wants to pay a lousy 12 million. In contrast, they want to pay 18 million for the alternative Tasci of Stuttgart. Let alone the fact that many mediocre English footballers are transferred for more than 25 million.
    Anyhow, the fact that second tier leagues receive increasingly less and less for their top talented players does not help in producing talents, or maintaining the system.
     
  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    It's so hilarious to see how HYPE this new era is toward rating teams and players.

    1- It's so premature to say Spain (or Barca) a greatest team ever!
    while many kept the doublestandard in saying it's not "easy" to compare (player and teams) of different era, YET they do with such claim. They forgot Brazil58-70, Germany 70-76, France 82-86, France 98-04, Brazil 94-02 ... and that's just the PERIOD long count, if we ignore the quality of each team at each event - like Hungary54, Brazil58, Brazil70, Germany 72-74, Holland74, Brazil82 and Italy82, Argentina86 and France86, France 98, Brazil02 ...

    They also forgot the fact how Spain was miserable against Chile (WC10 and friendly), against (ahem) a USA in condfed09, and lately need luck with Croatia to pass groupstage, and then they played so NEGATIVE against an "inexperienced France" ...

    2- It's so premature to have claimed Messi a greatest player ever (or along with Pele/Maradona).
    They forgot the fact Messi was choked at 2x WC, and 2x Copa (in Argentina shirt with whatever excuses) if we compare him to a Zico who lost his status (TOP10) just because he failed in 82, and especially because he got a great COMPETITION in Maradona, and Platini in the same era, who all became TOP10. Messi got so HYPED up since he got a FREE RIDE with only a Roanldo7 (not Ronaldo 9) as his serious competitor to challenge him in BIG GAMES!

    ======================================================

    At last, Spain 08-12 deserved a great mention for the achievement and their tiki taka style (thanks to Barca based Players). So was Messi with his great skillset and intelligence (to have blended well in Barca system) However, to say they are the greatest (EVER) is JUST ABSURD and NAIVE
     
  3. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I agree about Sheva having 1 great game, but not about Ibra and Melberg.

    You cannot foresee....? Of course you can't......to you only past players are all-timers.

    But you can't compare players from different eras using shooting stats. Balotelli and CR7 take lots of shots as part of their playing style. There is little opposition's defense can do. Can we blame missed shots on the "tricky" new ball? Previously you've said that new balls may give advantage to modern players, because they are tricky for GKs. But if the balls are tricky for GKs, then they are tricky for all players, including players taking shots.
     
  4. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    This has been repeated to death, but you're really talking about 2 different Brazil teams when you say 1994-2002. I mean, why stop at 9 years? Why not just count the last 80 years and say Brazil is the best NT ever!!1!!!

    lol at France 98-04! :D What did France do in 2002 or 2004? You're just adding those years to make it seem like a long "dynasty" so that Spain's 5 great years look meager by comparison. Well, 2 can play that game: how about Spain 2006-2012?

    And more importantly, Zico is Brazilian while Messi is not.

    PS... Messi "choked" at 2 World Cups now? Wow! Talk about ramblings from a hater...

    Its not absurd to include Spain in the discussion. Not including them in the discussion would be absurd since no other NT did what Spain did.
     
  5. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    SPain at WC06 , Euro08 were also different from WC10 and Euro12

    Well France (at least won Confed03) plus 2001 - much better than Spain lost to USA right after Euro08!

    Yes "choked" to his own standard ... (from ~1GPG at club down to 0.3GPG NT) whereas Zico got even better in NT (from 0.6GPG club to > 0.7GPG, from midfield)

    I like Messi. He just disappointed me from one tournament to another ... (well until last 4,5 friendlies games he did just GREAT and I xfingers to see his form at WC14)
     
  6. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Well WC 2006 has nothing to do with anything. The debate is if Spain 2008-12 is the best team ever. Yes obviously there have been some changes in the team over these 4 years. But the core is very much the same - Xavi, Iniesta, Alonso, Iker, Ramos, Torres etc. Only Puyol and Villa are gone from the 2008 core due to injury, yet they were still part of Euro 2012 qualifying.

    Brasil 1994 and 2002 are totally different.

    And winning a Euro is much much better than scoring 0 goals in the world cup and certainly trumps winning the MM confederations cup twice.
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    You maybe right as the time span of 9,10 years are a bit long.

    Well it's NOT Brazil NT fault that they always produced TONS of good players - so they would change the team almost every other year or so ... For example, even Brazil97 were different to WC98 and 99-2001 ... and then WC02 .. So? Another example, just because PELE sis notplay in WC62, many considered that was a "different team" from Wc58???

    Here we discussed of the NATIONAL TEAM- not a single based/core team per se
     
  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Spain 08-present is nowhere near being one of the greatest sides of all time, however. They have benefited from less-than-stellar opponents (compare this Italy with the one of Baggio, Maldini, Baresi, etc.), particularly in this last Euro. The France side of Zidane, Thuram and Henry is at least as good, if not actually better.
     
  9. Pass-n-Go

    Pass-n-Go Member+

    Jul 5, 2008
    The two teams that beat them in competitive matches are the US and Switzerland. Does that show the field got better or the top has fallen?Or both?
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Lets not forget that 11 men Italy gave Spain a hard time, plus Paraguay and Chile, who were red carded very quick, at the world cup in 2010.

    Pelé has also reacted
    http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/3296...zils-1970-world-cup-winners-better-than-spain
     
  11. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Well Spain were already up 2-nil by the time Chile went down to 10 men. Italy gave Spain a hard time? hmm.. sort of. But its Italy! What do you expect? And at 2-nil they were dead and buried. Injury played no big role. Paraguay put up a tough fight, but who hasn't encountered tough battles on their way to a title? France 2000 had a difficult time against Spain, Portugal and... wait for it... Italy in the final. Sound familiar? :D Also lucky that Spain missed a penalty in that quarterfinal.

    On paper France '00 were an amazing team comparable to Spain 2008-12. In reality they were a strong team but nothing out of the ordinary. Some of their players didn't play as well for country as they did their clubs. That's not the case with this Spain team.

    I can't be arsed to click the link. It's Pele...
     
  12. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
  13. 621380

    621380 Member

    Feb 21, 2004
    germany
    germany 1970...loosing only 1 game in extratime...with a injured beckenbauer
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6YkO_P4_dg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOjuZIYJZps
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3P1rUKPOno
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Dear Schwuppe,

    For the sake of consistency, of your point, it is maybe also good to note that Spain hasn't played against Brazil since 1999.

    And what counts as two generations? 10 years? Or 20 years?
    [i.e. 2*5 years or 2*10 years]

    No, they went down to 10 when it was 1-nil.

    Not true, on the contrary, it is often mentioned by fanboys that this Spain team never reached the same heights as Barcelona did/does.
     
  15. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    It was 2-nil. The incident occurred behind the play and after Spain scored the referee showed red. When Spain are up by 2 it really is game -over (even at 1-nil its pretty much over).

    I never heard that before. They can't match Barca cuz they don't have Messi, but their main players all play as well for Spain as they do for their clubs. And in some cases they play better for Spain.

    Maybe you're thinking of Spain pre-2008 ?
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I stop discussing with you because I pretty much disagree with everything you said (also the things you said about the Holland NT such as "Sneijder barely a starter").
     
  17. 621380

    621380 Member

    Feb 21, 2004
    germany
    yes i knows its a advantage suporting 2 nationalteams...argentina and italy...germany is a trauma for argentina too...at least since 1990..i have seen a messi interview a while ago where he whined argentina didnt deserve the defeat against germany 2006...if he think argentina didnt deserve to loose against germany 2006, so germany didnt deserve to loose against italy 1970 by a mile...what did he say after the 4:0 defeat 2010???
     
  18. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    You mad?

    He's barely a starter because Affelay or Huntelaar or RVP is on the bench if Sneijder starts. They probably went with the right choice, but its not like Sneijder is in another league from those 3.
     
  19. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    What point?
    You are mistaken if you think I use Pelé's opinion as a point, I'm just surpised that he prefers current Spain over Brazil's U-17 squad from 2005.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That was an amazing team?
     
  21. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Of course I'm going to support Italy over Germany, you butthurt over that?

    The WC06 match only went to penalties because Pekerman took out Riquelme for no reason, otherwise it's the end of the tourney for Germany. In that match, Argentina outplayed them.
     
  22. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    No, but it's Pelé.
     
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    you keep your expose to another level ... :mad:
    Now you try to compare Huntelaar and Aflelay to Sneijder? Those names are actual BENCH players - Gosh
    Sneijder had been and will be a sure starter for Holland - as the Playmaker - with Van derVaart on the bench.

    ==================================================
    Back on track,

    This Spain 08-12 deserved to be in TOP5 teams (* over the time span) of all time for their achievement. But to call them the BEST, is a huge stretch = especially the way the won games. The last Euro12 final first 25minutes were their best ever playing and it was truely entertaining (thanks to Prandelli to put up an attacking formation along witha HALF fit Chielini )
     
  24. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Settle-down. It's not 2010 Sneijder we are talking about. It's fair to compare him to an up and coming star like Afellay. Like I said, I would pick Sneijder for now because of the experience and the situation (Afellay just came back from injury). But Afellay is stronger on the wing and could open more space for Huntelaar and RVP, rather than playing everything through the middle.

    And how is Huntelaar "an actual bench player"? What does that mean? Top scorer in the Bundesliga.
     
  25. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Both Afellay and Huntelaar were always a BENCH for Holland team from 08 onward. Holland coach made a BAD decision to start Afellay in Euro12 (instead of Van DerVaart or Kuit_ ) and they lost early ... I did not mean Afellay was the cause but tactically he was NOT in sync with neither Sneider nor Van Persie (who was the 2nd worse one there) The ONLY good player in that team was Sneijder ...

    It does NOT matter Huntelaar was Bundesliga topscorer! Van persie was doing great in EPL if not better, and so waht? the KEY is hwo they blend and play for the NT= and tyhey both FAILED

    Look, Trezeguet was SerieA topscorer, but he was always a benc player for France ! Or a Pires was in great form for Arsenal (15+goals from midfield) but also was on bench! - tactical decision! But NO ONE would take off Zidane out of the team, NOR any coach would take off Sneijder from Holland NT
     

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