Proposal: Confederation REALIGNMENT, instead of consolidation

Discussion in 'CONCACAF' started by phillyhotspur3, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. phillyhotspur3

    Apr 19, 2012
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    There have been many posts over the last few years regarding a "hoped for" consolidation of CONCACAF with CONMEBOL. Many though it would be great for the US and Mexico to have better competition, thus raising the quality of play across the board. Conversely, those loyal to CONMEBOL cringed at the thought of having some crap Caribbean team mucking up the system in club and national tournaments.

    After watching Euro 2012 and the 2012 UEFA Champions Leage, I'm reminded again and again that the quality of European football is far greater than (most) football in the Americas. Fans from all over the world pay good money to travel to games or at least watch the spectacles of European football, but I doubt you'd ever find many fans outside North America wanting to tune in to the CONCACAF Gold Cup or the Confederation's Cup. It tends to be piss-poor football.

    Even the most ardent supporters of USA football will admit that the only time our national team is exciting to watch is when World Cup football is on the line - either in the actual tournament or in qualifying. And even the qualifying can be rough to watch, especially when you're forced to watch at a crowded bar or on some crappy online stream.

    And while most CONMEBOL members are true the quality of their play and wouldn't slight in for even a second, many would admit that outside of Argentina and Brazil, there is little in the way of equality between the South Americans and the Europeans.

    So while merging the two confederations is a pie in the sky idea with little possible follow-through and even less support by South American fans...I think there could be a better solution that plays to CONMEBOL's advantage: realignment.

    UEFA has 53 teams, CONCACAF 40, CONMEBOL 10, AFC 47, CAF 56, and Oceania 14. Other than two wins by Uruguay in the World Cups early days, no team outside of UEFA, Brazil, or Argentina have ever won the world cup, let alone finished second. And outside of the US in 1930, and South Korea in 2002, the same statistic applies to third and fourth place as well.

    UEFA, AFC, and CAF all have large enough pools to put forth great talent - and even though AFC and CAF struggle to do so, the players and pool of competition are enough to get them there eventually. CONMEBOL has only 10 members and outside of Brazil and Argentina, haven't placed another team in the top four since 1950.

    I propose that we do away with CONCACAF altogether. It's a garbage confederation with a few good teams that are forced into playing small island nations for peanuts - and then never going to a World Cup having been tested or tried against good football teams on a consistent basis. I would suggest that we send the land-mass teams from North and Central America (the USA, Mexico, Canada, Guatemala, Beliz, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama) to CONMEBOL. Heck, they wouldn't even have to change the acronym. Instead of CONfederacion sudaMEricana de futBOL, it would just be changed to CONfederacion aMEricana de futBOL).

    With this move, CONMEBOL increases to 20 teams, adds at least 3 strong teams as well as 7 other teams for competition - increasing their number of World Cup bids from 4 or 5 to 6 or 7 with a possible playoff qualifier.

    What do we do with the rest of CONCACAF? Either let them stay a full confederation at 30 teams (with just 1 or 1+1 qualifying teams) OR have them merge with Oceania to great a new 44 team Island Nations Football Confederation - which, honestly, would work well for both sides, giving them at least 2 solid bids for the World Cup.
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    I know it seems like a pipe dream, and it honestly probably is, but imagine how great it would be to have a 20-team CONMEBOL that had increased competition for both national teams and club teams, raising the bar across the board. Sure, the Copa Libertadores would get a few additional teams, but they already include 3 from Mexico and adding three combined from the US/Canada wouldn't really hurt all that much. In fact, subtract 2+1 from Brazil and 2 from Argentina, and every major country would have exactly 3 club teams represented.

    For some South Americans, the thought of an MLS team winning the Copa Libertadores would be utterly despicable - but do you honestly see that happening? Not in the next couple of decades, anyway. So other than the prospect of the US hosting the tournament once every 12 years (probably in LA or Houston anyway), what would be so upsetting about it?
     
    jagum and soccersubjectively repped this.
  2. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. So you would not invite the Central American clubs to Copa Libertadores? What is up with that?

    2. The Copa America is played every 4 years, so with 20 members that is holding a Copa America every 80 years.

    3. Well I let others point the other bad parts.
     
  3. Pike

    Pike Member

    Arsenal | Hertha Berlin | Brest 29
    United States
    Jun 3, 2000
    New Orleans Born | Shanghai
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This doesn't make sense??? The proposal included every Central American including Beliz as members of this "new" confederation. The 2nd quote below is a little ambiguous, but I read it to include CA clubs not exclude them.

    I supposed you could had meant Caribbean teams? This would be an equally valid argument. Excluding this area would not benefit the growth and development of the sport in the region.

    I would also like to note that in UEFA not every country in the confederation has their champion in the Champions League. One could assume, if such a merger would take place, then a similar system would be put used.

    This doesn't make sense. UEFA would have just as many members and this does not cause the European Cup to take any longer than "2 years" to have qualifiers. I do not see how this would make an America competition to take longer. Unless you suggesting that Amerca's officials are grossly incapable of running an efficient tournament. I think past tournaments has proven otherwise.

    No comment!

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  4. The Green Mushroom

    Oct 19, 2011

    I think the rotation policy for the Copa America is being referred to here. The tournament is every four years--and the U.S. would play in qualifiers every four years then, unless they make it a twenty team tournament (or 24 with invites)--but as of today, they do not bid out the tournament. Instead each of the 10 countries gets to host it in turn. Now I would presume that an enlarged CONMEBOL would need to change that system, that is not a given and the U.S. may instead only get the tournament every four score years after waiting for everyone else to get a turn.


    Otherwise, I like the idea of dumping the Caribbean and having all ten continental teams in CONCACAF join CONMEBOL. My only (mild) concern is that I don't think that what is left in CONCACAF would be worthy of a full place in the World Cup. Frankly, I don't care, but I think they might not like having all the money and World Cup places fly away while they get stuck with deciding who gets to make a trip to lose to New Zealand every four years.
     
  5. Pike

    Pike Member

    Arsenal | Hertha Berlin | Brest 29
    United States
    Jun 3, 2000
    New Orleans Born | Shanghai
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I haven't really given this idea much thought, however after reading this thread and another thread, i did a little digging.

    CONCACAF is not as old as I thought. There was a time when the different regions were separate (thought Central America was combined with the Caribbean zone).

    The problem seems to be the "number" of little islands in the Caribbean. I do not see why SA would want to take on so many little island nations which will throw out the balance of power. This doesn't even address that financially, the Caribbean is more a financial strain than a benefit. With two minor exception, the play on the field is also not a benefit.

    It does seem reasonable to me for the North & central American regions join the rest of South America in a combined federation.

    This would create a similar situation that had existed in Oceania; instead it would be T&T and Jamaica fighting for the rights that Australia and New Zealand previously had in Oceania. The Caribbean do share several traits that exist in Oceania. Each consist of small population where soccer/ football is still developing. Unlike you, I do not envision the winner of each region to compete for one spot. I see them competing with the next nearest federation. In the case of the Caribbean; The newly formed America Association or federation.

    The only other alternative is to re- organized the islands into larger entities; geographically, Lesser and Greater Antilles, or linguistically, French and English speaking islands. The Spanish speaking islands, like Dominican Republic and Cuba are large and strong enough to fend for themselves.

    With all of the recurring discussion about "merging" the confederation, does anyone actually know what it would entail for this even to happen?

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  6. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean this part

    He first wants a 20 team confederation, but then when he talks about Copa Libertadores he forgets about the Central American Nations (7) and only talks about adding MLS teams to copa Libertadores.

    Not sure what you mean here, I guess that phillyhotspir plan calls for the CFU to go the way of the Oceania Federation, I guess Libertadores could include 3 CFU members like the CCL does now if that is what you mean.


    As the Green Mushroom pointed out, I was talking about the rotation for hosting the Copa America, if every country is going to get a chance to host it then a full 20 member rotation would take 80 years, meaning the USA would only host Copa American every 80 years, not as he describes it.

     
  7. Pike

    Pike Member

    Arsenal | Hertha Berlin | Brest 29
    United States
    Jun 3, 2000
    New Orleans Born | Shanghai
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    c
    He first wants a 20 team confederation, but then when he talks about Copa Libertadores he forgets about the Central American Nations (7) and only talks about adding MLS teams to copa Libertadores. [/quote]

    I am still not seeing where the OP excluded CA countries. I am sure, however, what he considers to be "major" countries. This is again ambiguous. In any event, it would seem the OP is claiming there is plenty of "wealth" to spread around among the "major" countries as far as the "No." of teams allowed to inter into a regional club championship.





    I do not see any merger regardless of how people dream it up is possible as the present situation with the Caribbean exist.

    I got it now... I would think the present rotation system would have to be revised regional rotational. Then again, so nation, at present, probably could not handle such a "major" tournament. It would most likely be a North/South rotation as I do not think the central American countries have the infrastructure to handle a large tournament even if it is a dual hosting.

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  8. jagum

    jagum Member

    CF Montreal
    Venezuela
    Jun 20, 2007
    Panama City, Panama
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Venezuela
     
  9. jagum

    jagum Member

    CF Montreal
    Venezuela
    Jun 20, 2007
    Panama City, Panama
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Venezuela
    The Caribbean Confederation shouldn´t have a full spot to the WC, just 0.5 in case they separate from CONCACAF. It´s better to go to the play -offs. the full spot later when they deserve it.
     
  10. The Green Mushroom

    Oct 19, 2011
    Agreed. I don't understand why anyone would think that the Caribbean deserves a full spot.
     
  11. jagum

    jagum Member

    CF Montreal
    Venezuela
    Jun 20, 2007
    Panama City, Panama
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Venezuela
    20 team confederation. 7.5 spots. how could be the qualifying procedure ?
    I suggest 4 groups of 5 nations : the winners qualify and the runners- up go to a play off for 3 direct places and the fourth goes to a intercontinental play off.

    Mocking draw accoding to FIFA rankings :

    A) Argentina - USA - Peru - El Salvador- Guatemala

    B) Uruguay -Colombia - Venezuela - Honduras- Nicaragua

    C) Chile - Paraguay- Panama - Costa Rica -Bolivia

    D) Brazil - Mexico- Ecuador - Canada- Belize

    Not easy at all ...
     
  12. The Green Mushroom

    Oct 19, 2011
    I kinda like it. Though some of the flights will be killers.
     
  13. Pike

    Pike Member

    Arsenal | Hertha Berlin | Brest 29
    United States
    Jun 3, 2000
    New Orleans Born | Shanghai
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    LOL, I actually suggested this in another thread. (https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-by-our-lonesome.1725070/page-5#post-25966469) In the thread I suggested two alternatives, one of which is what you indicated. The second was two groups of 10. With only one round, I do not think anyone would be happy with just 8 games.

    BTW, your draw is even easier for Mexico and the United States than in my fictitious draw.

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  14. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They hold 28+ votes under FIFA. That is why they would probably keep 1 full WC spot, at least on the short run, eventually WC/Confederations cup results would take them down to OFC level and leave them with .5 spots.

    Shit If it was up to me I would make it that the CFU champion and the OFC champion play each other for places in the U17,U20,WC for men and women.

    That would guarantee at least one from the island confederations, they would have a better chance against each other than against UEFA, Conmebol, rest of Concacaf, AFC or CAF.
     
  15. 764dak

    764dak Member

    Sep 7, 2012
    Club:
    US Città di Palermo
    You're automatically assuming that all Central American teams are better than all Caribbean teams. Since 1991 Nicaragua has only been to one Gold Cup (2009). Jamaica is a better team than those countries in bold. Jamaica and Cuba both have more World Cup wins than every Central American country except Costa Rica.
     

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