Why Do Many Consider This Current Era "weak"?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by laudrup_10, May 4, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The second thing is subjective, the first is outright false. Capello did use his team differently and used other training methods because the one of Sacchi had worn out the team. In fact, his star players (incl. the Dutchmen) revolted against Sacchi and the changing emphasis of Capello was an consequence of this.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the 1930s you had the longer established Mitropacup. I can imagine that it was more prestigious than a World Cup in its infancy.
     
  3. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    But that era had another more prestigious international tournament i.e. the Olympics, so IMO its better to compare the Mitropa Cup to that. In any case, going so far back wouldn't serve the purpose of this exercise since the strength or weakness of that era with respect to other eras would be too difficult to gauge. Thus one wouldn't be able to use that era to make a good comparison.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, looking at the 1960s and 1970s I have the following facts from an television audience point of view.

    The 1966 World Cup final had a market share of 61%, 3,5 million viewers. Rating was 7.7 with the final having a peak with 8.1.

    The 1970 World Cup final had here a market share of 53%, 3,25 million viewers. Average rating was a 7.9 with the semi-final between GER-ITA having a peak but also a rather low market share thanks to the late time slot.

    Of course, matches featuring domestic teams received higher figures with as absolute peak interestingly not any of the finals but Feyenoord-Real Madrid in 1963 when 89% viewed the match.

    But as comparison:

    EC final of 1965 had an estimated market share of 77% and of 1966 73%. Ratings were about the same though, with 1965 (Inter - Benfica) having a slightly lower one. Dunno about other countries but over here these two European Cup finals received a greater market share than the 1966 World Cup final, held in England.

    Also an 'ordinary' match like Liverpool-Cologne had a share of 76%.

    Manchester United - AC Milan in 1969 had a rating of 8,0 and a share of 79%, but of course these stats are inflated because Ajax was also in the running for the trophy.

    [market share means in this context: estimated amount of viewers / total amount of potential viewers within reach of a television - so not: viewers / total viewers]

    This is what I know but it perhaps varies greatly among the countries, as I said earlier.

    I can imagine that in Spain people were more interested in club football than international football for large stretches of the 1950s until 1970s. So what was bigger and more prestigious? I can't give that call.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Anyhow, we discussed the merits of Xavi but he is more like the type of guy to break an assist or chances created record, considering what he does for Barcelona. I can see the point that Van Nistelrooij and Shevchenko are no absolute all-time greats and have a goalscoring record in the Champions League (among others) but the history of the Champions League isn't very long and *IMO* both belong among the top 5 strikers of the Champions League era.
     
  6. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I've made my comments based on your comments and explanations so far. Perhaps you can justify your disrespect of Xavi with better explanation, because the one you've given so far is not convincing enough. Barca's/Spain's system makes a "mediocre" player like Xavi shine? So the system is so great? Does it occur to you that perhaps the system works because of Xavi's great abilities, amongst other things? Does it occur to you that the same may apply to other players, regardless of their true abilities, who play under different systems designed to bring the best in those players and those other players may be players you admire and respect?

    I'll end this post by rephrasing something I've said already. Systems help players play better and players make the systems work......that applies to all systems and all players.....ever. If you understand that, then you wouldn't be saying that you can't give Xavi respect because he is just a mediocre player who only looks good because of the system he plays in.
     
  7. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The challenge for International football has always been the fact that International coaches do not have as much time with the players as their club coaches to work on things. In recent times the challenge has become bigger problem as players have been allowed to move more freely to clubs from different countries than their origin.

    In the past, International teams have consisted of primarily domestic based players due to the 3 foreigners rule it used to exist. Players were more likely to remain at their domestic clubs rather than go and play at foreign club teams. However, exceptions always existed, of course.

    As players became more free and willing to play abroad, they also became more familiar with tendencies of players in other countries as they now play more often against some of them on a club level, rather than occasionally only at international level.

    That's one of the changes in the game that has affected the difference between club football and international football. Another change in effect is the extension of the club calendar vs international calendar.
     
  8. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    About "the second thing" I began by saying it is subjective. The first thing is not false because there isn't much difference in how Capello played his team, even though he might've trained them differently. You say the star players (incl. the Dutchmen) revolted against Sacchi, yet Gullit had problems under Capello and didn't play much. Both Sacchi and Capello were tough and demanding coaches to all their players though.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  10. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Great info, where did you pull it out from?

    Anyway, the above is one way to look at the prestige of international tournaments vs that of club tournaments, the other IMO is to look at how much the international tournaments of an era, affected the legends of the greats of that time. For instance, in the current era the 'greats', Messi and Ronaldo, have been able to maintain their supremacy on individual awards with their club exploits alone while their international shortcomings have been largely disregarded, during the late 50s however, the lack of WC participation seemingly ensured that a great like Di Stefano who was Balon d'Or winner in both 1957 and 1959, was unable to garner even a single vote in the 1958 ratings.

    So from this perspective, can you think of any other era which is similarly fixated on club achievements? Granted that this may be too tough a question to answer, however I feel that one of the factors affecting the strength of an era is the importance given to various tournaments in that era by the media and general public which follow that sport, which end up affecting the attitudes of players who play in that era and in those tournaments.

    Lastly, would just like to state that I agree with you, that the call regarding which tournaments were more important in particular eras, is too tough to get a consensus on and it might be a tangent which is too tough to postulate and discuss about at this point in time with the resources that we have.
     
  11. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I See What You Did There.png

    The video also reminds me of a quote which is applicable to this particular case,
    "In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" - Desiderius Erasmus
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'm curious how you look at it but the history of the World Cup is also one with developments and ups and downs. In that sense I think that the 1954WC and 1970WC were two landmark moments in particular.

    In terms of viewing figures (I looked that up in archives and made a note of it) and ratings the 1974WC was obviously the highest one. The time slots were right and the national team had success.
    Interestingly, the 1978WC had very low ratings. It had an average share of 34% and average rating of 73. The article mentioned that this are very disappointing figures and that 1970WC did better (despite Holland not participating) - I made a note about this.
    Peak in figures was the final of course with 8,1 million viewers, but the highest rating was produced by HOL-GER with 80 as rating.
    Probably it is just coincidence but 1978 is also the last year where someone won the Ballon d'Or without participating at the World Cup at all.

    The figures and rating for 1982WC went up, but it was played in Europe of course. 1986WC went down again - the rating was a 7. Lowest rating ever was 1990WC with a 6,6.

    Hence, since they started to measure it these were the ratings in the pre-Champions League era by the public:

    1966WC - 7.7
    1970WC - 7.9
    1974WC - 7.7
    1978WC - 7.3
    1982WC - 7.5
    1986WC - 7.0
    1990WC - 6.6 (final: 6.2) - lowest ever

    The first one was done by a sample with a sample with 5000 persons, the last one with sample of 10000, it gradually increased.

    1986 had also a Ballon d'Or winner who was known for other feats in that year, although he did perform at the WC. Best watched matches were the final, Brazil-Spain and France-Germany. Final had the highest rating too, France-Germany one of the lowest ones.


    Anyhow, I don't know how you look at it but the prestige of international football wasn't constant and in this aspect I see 1954WC and 1970WC as two landmark moments. 1954WC was the moment when the WC overtook the Olympics and 1970WC was the first one in color and also a showpiece. From a technical aspect it was noticeable that it was shown live on television - the 1962WC was also held in South America but it wasn't shown live on television in Europe. And that 1978 had a strange Ballon d'Or winner is peculiar.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    + Done on a carpet
    + In an unbalanced era (IMO)
    + Zero times fouled - and still three times dispossessed ( http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/566050/LiveStatistics/International-EURO-Cup-2012-Spain-Ireland )


    Video mentions that R. Koeman had the previous record, set in 120 minutes against Denmark in 1992. I don't have a compilation video about that one but I made a few months ago a compilation video of Van Basten in the game against Germany in 1992 and it is noticeable how many (of his) attacks started with a pass by Koeman.


    At the World Cup it was apparently Dunga.
     
  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Well, first of all, it DEPENDS on HOW you interpret a " chance creating" - or if you based on Whoscored ... I am sure Pirlo did open many more chances from deep position than "2" as said. But it depends .. let's say he "open a new chanel" to attack but bc Casano or Di Natale might have missed control ... so it did NOT count??? nyhow, Pirlo could have scored a freekick to save Italy, and what did Xavi do so far? besides breaking a TONS of passing (around)?

    Secondly, I am very surprised as "knowlegeable" as you are to have asked me such thing.
    It was so CLEAR: Ronaldo 8goals/28shots at WC02 versus the two best players of this era: Messi 0goals/23shots WC10, and just now ... CR7 with 2goals/23shots Euro12 (and 1goal/19shots at WC10) - Muller scored 10goals/<30shots at WC70 (or 26 If I remember right) was just even MUCH better
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    How do you know the stat of Muller?

    Messi had by the way 30 shots, and 15 on target:
    http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/southafrica2010/statistics/players/player=229397/index.html

    In 5 matches he suffered 15 fouls.

    He had one assist though, in the match against Mexico. It was that infamous offside goal.

    [​IMG]

    I know it well because one pundit over here joked that the FIFA allowed this goal on purpose. ;)
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yesterday two clear examples.

    Ramos makes a really ugly and dangerous tackle but it isn't carded or awarded a PK by the German referee.

    The second example is the shirt pulling over here:


    Interestingly, the second foul is only visible because the UEFA decides to replay the scene with a different purpose in mind, and that is looking at whether it was a corner kick or not. The commentator over here was also focusing on that but suddenly noticed the foul. If it was 'just' a clear goal kick the scene was never replayed and nobody had ever seen that a shirt was pulled.

    Many over here have noticed that the UEFA is very good in censoring things - streakers of course but also selectively replaying dubious moments, to protect the referee. The UEFA just fools you as viewer, like the ministery of media affairs in the old USSR. And they insert already taped scenes during the match and suggest that the scene happened during the match.

    Even worse: Spain did not receive a single yellow card in this match - similar as in the 2010 World Cup when they also escaped cards in heck fests like the Chile game.

    I know that shirt pulling isn't always translated in a PK, but I can recall a recent quarter-final Champions League game where Barcelona got two PKs in their favor, exactly for that offense. Nobody had noticed it either, until the UEFA showed the replays.

    But what I in particular don't like is how the UEFA television directors censor things - I cannot call it differently. This is no conspiracy, they've admitted it that the do not like to replay and single out not given calls. I.e. the Ramos horror tackle was shown from an awkward angle with as purpose to show whether it was a corner kick or not. This plain fooling of the viewer, and obvious protection of big countries/clubs, angers me, just as the expansion to 24 teams is the 'death' of international football.
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Here I was talking about "shooting" skills of players from this era compared to some of previous ones . Hence goals per shots, per shots on goals are counted ... Messi was not so bad in WC10 per se. He was just NOT up to his usual standard found in Barca system that people used to see weeks in weeks out. Besides, Messi and CR7, we could easily saw other stars in Van Persie, Robben, Benzama, Torres ... in this Euro as they WASTED chances way off from their own standard ... (again seen) from their club play.

    But It's again ... very subjective ... as on Castrol website, they said Messi had 21,3shots total aqnd CR7 had 18,19 - ANyhow ... we are not here to argue the exact number, but rather the GOAL/SHOTS - in big tournaments international versus regular club competition

    =============================================
    Off from Castrol, Germany NT had more creating chances and shots than all, qith an average of 20shots per game since WC1966 = with or without a playmaker.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Where did you read this?

    By the way, some stars like Schweinsteiger and Robben do show some consistency over the years. Robben was good in 2006WC (actually one of the highest rated players), in euro2004, euro2008 and WC2010. Schweinsteiger also performs very consistent over the years.

    Not everyone you mention is really that bad.

    Fact is though that the same Castrol rate Messi outside of the top 50 - below the likes of Sneijder, Ozil, Xavi and so on.
     
  19. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Strange how you forget to mention (or perhaps haven't noticed) the elbow Pique received from Mandzukic in the penalty area when Spain had an attacking corner kick.:rolleyes: Isn't that a penalty also?

    I will agree, Ramos' tackle was reckless, but he got ball and player, plus I'm not 100% convinced it was inside the penalty area.

    Otherwise, yes there is a lot of dirty play happening in the penalty area during corners. Some referees have the guts to call it, but most don't.
     
  20. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    It's right on Castrol website, under worldcup legends, yearly or so ...

    I was talking about the "SHOOTING SKILLS" of Robben, Van Persie, benzama, and CR7 ... in this Euro, not "form" nor "consistency"/

    Robben was very good at WC10 (more so than this euro) agree/ however the problem of Robben and Van Persie were "big game l;ooser" as they could not play well under pressure (Wc10 final, last UCL final and last 2 games Euro12 wehre they could have scored the winner for team)

    Sneijder, Schweintegger were more consistent in big games yeah ...
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    About the shots on target, which James mentioned:

    Eusebio was the most prolific goal threat at any FIFA World Cup™ since 1966, firing in more shots on target (31) than any other player.

    And I also found out who has the chances created record in a single World Cup match

    Johan Cruyff was the most creative player in a single FIFA World Cup™ game since 1966, setting up 11 chances for team-mates in a 4-1 win over Bulgaria

    Johan Cruyff is the World Cup’s most prolific creator setting up chances every 22 mins, more frequently than any other player since 1966.

    And that last thing is a bit what I meant with the discussion on the previous pages about the 'new' record of 10 chances in a euro game (vs Denmark, Sneijder).
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Another view of this Euro reflecting this "weak" era:
    http://espnfc.com/us/en/news/1109474/wrap-group-stage.html

    ...
    Euro 2012 has been a showcase for bold, unpredictable soccer, dominated by unexpected stars, with a biblical deluge thrown in to boot. Enjoy it while you can. UEFA, the tournament’s administrator, already is planning to kill the quality that makes the tournament so competitive. Euro 2016 will have a field of 24 teams, up from 16, in which the quality inevitably will be diluted.

    ... and ...
    Out of nowhere, left-foot goals seem so 2010. Of the 60 goals netted so far, 33 (55 percent) have been struck by the right foot, just 10 (17 percent) have come from the left, and a remarkable 17 (28 percent) have flown in off scorers’ heads. By way of comparison, a mere 18 percent of goals at World Cup 2010 were headed (26 of 145.)

    The tournament also has coughed up a string of unlikely heroes, many of whom leaped off the substitutes' bench: joyous Greek striker Dimitris Salpigidis; Polish penalty-stopper Przemyslaw Tyton; Italy's fleet-footed threat Antonio di Natale; Portugal’s master of the “whiff-n-score,” Silvestre Varela, and England’s dashing game-changer Theo Walcott.
    ...

    ======================================

    the 2nd paragraph also reflects the "shootig skills" diluted since WC2010 ... in which MANY had blamed on the "near perfect" Jabulani ball !!! Ironically, this Euro had EXACT the same weakness (shooting) percentage despite of replacing with a "tango" version !!!
     
  23. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Sometimes I read and I laugh......
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    As for Messi, I think he will win the World Cup in 2014. It will not settle the debate about whether this is a weak era but it will elevate him to all-time greatness status.

    As has been mentioned before, European teams have a near monopoly when the WC is held in Europe and South-American teams have a monopoly in South-America.

    Messi is now performing better and better with the national team and has the support cast too. And in these two next years, I don't see Brazil making enough progress. Brazil is since 2005 in a slump and it will stay that way until 2014 I think. And Spain will probably be not as good as it is now.

    The heat can also become a beneficial factor for Argentina, in terms of tactics. Slow defenders are less of an issue in tough circumstances. And it is beneficial for the game of Messi.

    It will happen in 2014. Only Germany can derail them but I don't see that happen.

    Maybe a premature call but that is my feeling. Messi is 26 in 2014 and likely on the peak of his powers.
     
  25. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    So you do not think Messi has reached his peak yet? FYI, he will be turning 27 during WC2014. It's a good age to reach greatness at international level. We'll see....

    I think Brazil will have a very good team in 2 years. Germany and Spain will still be amongst the favorites, along with Brazil. Never count out Italy.
     

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