Out of curiosity, I decided to measure how many of the players each MLS team lost over the offseason were real contributors. I included just players who saw the field in the 2011 regular season, and added up each player's regular season minutes to calculate the "minutes lost." Here are the results for a few teams: Timbers: 6 players, 3,597 minutes Cooper: 2795 Pore: 200 Goldthwaite: 190 Lowry: 146 Brown: 135 Umony: 131 Galaxy: 8 players, 5,567 minutes Birchall: 1551 Ricketts: 1284 Lopez: 1165 Berhalter: 748 Hejduk: 472 Kirovski: 244 Robinson: 90 Thomas: 13 Red Bulls: 12 players, 7786 minutes Ream: 2520 Mendes: 1505 Coundoul: 1035 Rost: 945 Sutton: 900 Albright: 482 Auvray: 124 Horwath: 90 Kassell: 82 Robinson: 54 Rooney: 48 Jones: 1 Union: 7 players, 10,739 minutes Le Toux: 3060 Mondragon: 2385 Mapp: 1861 Paunovic: 1236 Nakazawa: 1208 Miglioranzi: 980 Langley: 10 Seattle: 9 players, 12,711 minutes Keller: 3060 Riley: 2579 Wahl: 1989 Friberg: 1897 Fucito: 1045 Neagle: 1008 Jaqua: 843 Noonan: 259 Montano: 31 Houston: 5 players, 3,947 Freeman: 1909 Cruz: 1152 Costly: 576 Garey: 164 Robinson: 146 Real Salt Lake: 7 players, 6666 minutes Russell: 1809 Williams: 1970 Warner: 1106 A Alvarez: 724 Alexandre: 703 McKenzie: 180 Gonzalez: 174 Colorado: 5 players, 3776 minutes Nyassi: 1586 Folan: 1521 Comminges: 322 Earls: 224 Kandji: 123 DC United: 10 players, 8058 minutes. Simms: 2404 Davies: 1553 Burch: 1117 Quaranta: 1091 Brettschneider: 789 Ngwenya: 629 Zayner: 311 Cronin: 126 Barklage: 38 Sporting: 8 Players, 5766 Minutes Omar Bravo 2150 Davy Arnaud 1536 Milos Stojcev 790 Jeferson 571 Craig Rocastle 306 Ryan Smith 294 Scott Lorenz 84 Shavar Thomas 35 Where does your team rank?
Houston: 5 players, 3,947 Freeman: 1909 Cruz: 1152 Costly: 576 Garey: 164 Robinson: 146 * Only Cruz saw significant time second half of the season, followed by Costly off the bench.
Real Salt Lake: 7 players, 6666 minutes Russell: 1809 A Alvarez: 724 Alexandre: 703 Gonzalez: 174 McKenzie: 180 Williams: 1970 Warner: 1106 Apparently we got rid of the devil by losing these players so that bodes well for us
I think this is right ... DC United: 10 players for 8058 minutes lost. Brettschneider: 789 Barklage: 38 Davies: 1553 Simms: 2404 McTavish: 0 Zayner: 311 Ngwenya: 629 Burch: 1117 Quaranta: 1091 Cronin: 126
Sporting: 8 Players, 5766 Minutes Omar Bravo 2150 Davy Arnaud 1536 Milos Stojcev 790 Jeferson 571 Craig Rocastle 306 Ryan Smith 294 Scott Lorenz 84 Shavar Thomas 35
I threw everything that's been added into the OP. If we get them all (right now we have 10 of the 18 returning teams), I will put them in rank order.
Code: TEAM Players Minutes SSFC 12 12,711 PHI 7 10,739 DCU 10 8,058 RBNY 12 7,786 RSL 7 6,666 SKC 9 5,874 LAG 8 5,567 HOU 5 3,947 COL 5 3,776 PTFC 6 3,597
I compiled the rest of the teams: Team Players Minutes Lost SSFC 12 12,711 CUSA 14 11,792 CLB 8 11,408 PHI 7 10,739 VAN 13 8,135 DCU 10 8,058 RBNY 12 7,786 NER 10 7,622 TFC 11 6,674 RSL 7 6,666 SKC 9 5,874 SJ 7 5,840 DAL 7 5,637 LAG 8 5,567 HOU 5 3,947 COL 5 3,776 CHI 7 3,674 PTFC 6 3,597
This is what I came up with for San Jose: Burling - 2041 Convey - 1766 Leitch - 1115 Peterson - 436 Sealy - 419 Attakora - 383 Luzunaris - 63 Griffin - 46 Total : 6269 Attakora might still come back, but right now he's not under contract and trialing elsewhere. Also Griffin was just on loan. Not counting those two players you get 5840 like the above post.
Sorted by average minutes per player lost ... Code: [B][U] Mins Mins/Player Lost[/U] PHI 7 10,739 1534 CLB 8 11,408 1426 SEA 12 12,711 1059 RSL 7 6,666 952 CHV 14 11,792 842 SJE 7 5,840 834 DCU 10 8,058 806 FCD 7 5,637 805 HOU 5 3,947 789 NER 10 7,622 762 COL 5 3,776 755 LAG 8 5,567 696 SKC 9 5,874 653 NYR 12 7,786 649 VAN 13 8,135 626 TFC 11 6,674 607 POR 6 3,597 600 CHI 7 3,674 525[/B] The interesting teams to me are at the bottom of the table. They're the ones that kept the core of the first team together. And some of them did that while losing a lot of players. Philly's interesting too. They didn't give up that many players relatively speaking, but those players sure had a lot of minutes on the field. That's a team that made some big moves and is taking some serious gambles. And now that I have the Columbus numbers, they look a lot like Philly by this measure. Big gambles.
When you stop at minutes lost it gives the impression that some clubs have gapping holes to fill. What of the minutes gained by acquiring players who played more than a few minutes last season? Does that lessen the delta for any of these clubs?
that is largely irrelevant in relation to what is being measured and discussed here. plus many, probably over half of the players added to replace the lost players and their minutes have ZERO minutes in MLS because they've never played in MLS before and not last season. so there would be no way to fairly judge how well teams have replaced the lost minutes until the season is over. but at least we now have a picture of just what teams have lost. did they keep their core together? did they gut their team? did they shed fringe players and dead weight? these numbers can tell us that more accurately than just speculation or opinion. as for how teams have replaced their lost minutes, ... well that is still in the realm of opinion and speculation for now ...
I refrained from adding a comment about this being an exercise in futility since I contributed to the discussion, but since your brought it up... Yes, but the problem lies with the subjectivity of the value of minutes in relation to player talent. While interesting, the concept of measuring lost minutes (without taking a lot of other factors into consideration) provides nothing more than anecdotal results. Is it safe to assume that a club gutted their team when they lost 3 players that never would have earned the minutes played except for injuries to the club's starters? Houston may have thought they were dumping dead weight when they got rid of a forward who only scored 5 goals in 2010, but then he scored 12 goals the next season. We haven't left the realm of opinion and speculation by focusing entirely on minutes lost.
I don't think tracking it implies 'focusing entirely' on it. I'm well aware that, for instance, DCU's minutes lost are mostly 'good', at least in the sense that these are players the team willingly parted with. Robbie Rogers' minutes lost are probably 'bad', in the sense that the team wanted to re-sign him and couldn't. I get that. But as a raw measure of turnover, it's a start (and probably better than just number of roster spots turned over).
exactly. it is interesting to see that while some teams lost 10-12 players ... they didn't lose that many minutes (comparatively) ... meaning the cleared out "deadwood" ... whereas SSFC lost 12,000 minutes ... that's a lot of minutes to make up .... and they have added quality to replace those minutes but still ... that much turnover is always a risk.
Similar to what gunnar said, you could also filter this list to show only players with, say, 1000+ minutes lost to show who lost "major" conributors. Minutes lost per player average (as has been shown) and median per player lost also help to get a better idea. I agree that seattle wth 12k minutes could be a potential issue with team cohesion in the early season, even with the new signings being quality players. And definitely the other side of the coin is how they were replaced, but as has been mentioned that would be pretty difficult considering how many new roster spots are players that have never been in mls.
And I think that is where Pablo's comment comes into play. Perhaps not the number of minutes added, but without a discussion about what was brought in to replace the minutes lost, the number itself isn't very useful. As an example, SSFC lost almost 13,000 minutes in the players they lost this offseason, this includes 5 starters and their primary late game sub from last season. If all you are looking at is the numbers you would think the Sounders are completely f***ed this season. It's only when you look at who they brought in to replace those minutes lost that you see they haven't really lost much: Out ----------- In ---------------- Change in Quality Keller-------Gspurning --------- Slight decrease Riley--------Johansson --------- Moderate improvement Wahl-------Burch ---------------- Moderate decrease Neagle-----Sivebaek ----------- Major improvement Friberg-----None ---------------- Redundant to Evans, but cuts into depth Fucito-------Johnson/Cato ----- EJ improvement, Cato decrease Jaqua-------Sodade/Ochoa ---- Salary dump, no increase or decrease Noonan-----Sodade/Ochoa ---- Salary dump, no increase or decrease
I posted a thread about this topic last year based on this article: http://www.hottimeinoldtown.com/201...ever-had-a-chance-but-dont-blame-frank-klopas Here it is: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1801827 There's some correlation that should be considered in my opinion. I think we should continue to track the numbers and continue to refine the math.
When I looked at San Jose's website I didn't find those two so I assumed they had 0 minutes. Thanks for the correction.
Looking at minutes lost is just a good starting point for further analysis and discussion. I get the impression people see stats like these and think that the numbers mean something. The numbers are what they are. Then you dig deeper and that's where you can start to draw conclusions.
They do mean SOMETHING, but not necessarily what people think. They're a data point in a larger discussion.