Eric Wynalda's "Howard Beale moment": FSC employees rant against MLS at the NSCAA Convention

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by xbhaskarx, Jan 13, 2012.

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  1. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So by that logic any US soccer podcast that fails to cover this story with Wynalda actually appearing on the show, would be weak? So any time Eric Wynalda says something, every podcast must have him on? What if he says MLS is run by Jewish bankers? What if it's not Wynalda but Preston Zimmerman? Which podcasts had him on? What if you say something?

    And what about the opposing viewpoint? Did the podcast you linked have a representative from MLS on to respond to Wynalda? If not, is that not weak?
     
  2. RaveGreen

    RaveGreen Member

    Seattle Sounders FC
    Apr 6, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nope, just the one the asserts that it sit the premier MLS soccer podcast and is interested in all the "news, rumors and controversy around the league."

    Erik Wynalda said something controversial which someone employed by the league responded to but which most of us have not heard.

    Its a topic big enough for this long thread. Why not have him on the show as a former US National Team and MLS player.

    Time. Fail.

    The podcast I linked was recorded this past summer before the current controversy with Nelson Rodriguez.

    If I am Greg Lalas, I am trying to get Wynalda and Rodriguez both on for a debate.

    That is what is called in the business "great radio".

    Of course if my show has been neutered by the higher-ups, I wouldn't pursue it other than a casual mention of the controversy, if that.
     
  3. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right, it may predate the current controversy, but if that podcast covered Wynalda's idea to move the MLS schedule, and had Wynalda on to push his ideas, why didn't they also have a MLS representative on to defend the current schedule, to have balanced coverage that gives equal time to both sides?

    It is the MLS schedule, not Wynalda's schedule. If Garber was going on podcasts rambling incoherently about how FSC should do a MLS highlight show, I would hope the people doing the podcast would get a FSC representative on to give their position.
     
  4. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Somewhere along the line the idea became fact that what was best for the owners of MLS automatically equated with what was best for MLS fans or soccer in general in the USA. Now, at times, when the sport was on shakier footing, maybe that was mostly the case. But there's no reason to think those two things are synonymous now.

    Pro/rel is indeed a novel solution to the problems with finding ways for new companies to enter the market in a sports league. I think Americans downplay its usefulness, possibly because they over sympathize with the ownership of current franchises (who would obviously hate it). Unfortunately you're right, it ain't gonna happen.
     
  5. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Exactly.

    One of the "nice things" that the idea of flipping the MLS season (to have it run fall-spring) has going for it, is that it is not as crazy or unlikely for MLS as is the idea of trying to implement promotion and relegation within the single-entity MLS.

    Not that "the case for a summer off-season" really benefits from such a juxtaposition in any real discussion or analysis, but at least it always isn't the potentially worst or unlikeliest idea that could possibly be on the table in an MLS BoG meeting.
     
  6. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    And this is where we, the reading/listening audience, may run into trouble if we're expecting or hoping for someone like Wynalda to be able to give a truly useful or insightful argument.

    I'm not certain why we'd expect Wynalda to have any (deep or new) insight into MLS's privately held business and operational realities (or possibilities).

    But Wynalda is the name, and he gets the thread/attention. There's a reason why reportedly only 20 or so folks showed up for Nelson Rodriquez's session at the NSCAA conference, while several times that many were reportedly there for Wynalda's Donohue-esqe stage show.

    Now if someone like Merritt Paulson or Eric Soler were saying some of the same things as Wynalda was so non-delicately trying to say, then we'd have a real story on our hands and then we'd likely be better able to receive more helpful public arguments and not just "Wynalda-level" assertions.
     
  7. nick

    nick Member+

    Nov 23, 1998
    Potomac Falls, Va
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow. I can't believe how many BS Old Timers have been flushed out on this issue. And we can't remember what we said previously - ala Stanley Matthews LOL.

    There are only 2 things I've come to realize in life, there is a Don Garber and I'm not him.
     
  8. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Well, the NHL - with a big global component - plays through the IIHF World Championships each spring. I shoot 25-40 NHL games a year and I've never, ever, heard any discussion about aligning the NHL with the rest of the world so that all players would be available.

    Again, while it is entirely possible that MLS might one day change its season, I see no inevitability.
     
  9. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Yes, but even hockey's marketplace is still different from and not nearly as big as soccer's "global component."

    And why or how is that relevant to MLS?

    Would you not agree that within the global hierarchy of leagues (and global/international competitions) within their own sport, that the NHL occupies a better position (especially as a business) than does MLS?

    In my view, MLS (and the scheduling of the seasons specifically) has the room for improvement/changes/innovations, relative to say the room or need for operational improvements/changes in the NHL or MLB or the NFL.


    Completely agree.

    And for all the insight we could gain from other professional sports leagues in the US(/Canada) and elsewhere, with respect to scheduling and other operational decisions, it is most fair to note that MLS is its own business operating within its own unique marketplace(s) and set(s) of challenges. The league will, as a business, continue to meet those challenges and make the best decisions to push itself forward as a (more and more) successful operation.

    It is fair and accurate to state that "while it is entirely possible that MLS might one day change its season, I see no inevitability" -- and it is also fair and accurate to state that "while it is entirely possible that MLS might always structure its season within a single calendar year, I see no inevitability."
     
  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I call bullshit.

    Nobody* here equates the two. That's silly.

    What you see is a realization that the owners are gonna do what is in their best interest, not in the fans' best interests. In other news, water is wet.

    *I doubt it's literally "nobody." I'm sure if you're willing to invest the time you'll find a post here or there that you can argue does what you're saying. But it's a very, very small minority.
     
  11. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

    Jun 8, 2000
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is completely debatable. There is also no reason to think that implementing pro/rel in a completely open system wouldn't put the domestic game right back onto that shaky footing. That isn't necessarily the case, but it is a valid argument, and you really can't just rule it out.

    Or, more likely, they understand that banging their heads against this wall is a complete waste of time. I've said for years and years that pro/rel would be a great idea, from a competitive standpoint, in at least the NHL and NBA. It would be a good idea for the NFL and the MLB*, also. But, as you say,
    As long as the top levels of a sport are run by businessmen for profit, business priorities will always trump competitive ones. Before you can whine about the lack of pro/rel (not that you are personally, but others certainly do), you have to change that, and I'm not seeing a way to do that.



    *Just a reminder how stupid "the MLS" sounds.
     
  12. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I'm not sure I agree that it makes sense for the NHL or NBA, much less the NFL or MLB.

    On the other hand, Pro/Rel might offer a real solution to the issue of NCAA Division I football (and select other sports), allowing the top teams to play in smaller multi-tiered divisions than the two level monstrosities we now have. Obviously, there are the economic concerns of the various bowl games, existing TV contracts and so on.

    In the end business inertia tends to make changes smaller and less risky. The bigger the business, the greater the aversion to change.
     
  13. LordRobin

    LordRobin Member+

    Sep 1, 2006
    Akron, OH
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, no. Not to any great extent. Not unless you're planning on giving the players the winter break off completely, which would be stupid because you want them match fit when play resumes. Remember, the players' contract stipulates a certain number of weeks off. You can't just make them play year-round.

    But whatever. I don't care about meaningless friendlies. That goes for club friendlies as well as international matches. Taking away my summer MLS games and replacing them with friendlies would feel like a major loss.

    ------RM
     
  14. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Absolutely, any changes to the MLS schedule would obviously need to consider the required number do off/rest days/weeks for the players in any 52-week period.

    Any idea what the current CBA (or the previous one) required in terms of time off for players each year/season?

    The busine$$ cares about meaningless friendlies. "Competive" concerns are not driving a lot of the decisions that are made in the world of soccer.

    "your taken away summer MLS games" may feel like a loss to you, but others might actually realize and appreciate that those league games are relocated to other weeks and overall it might be a net positive for some fans (should MLS actually at some point institute a summer off-season).
     
  15. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

    Jun 8, 2000
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And it might not. In the meantime, you're coming off as saying, "It will be better when I get what I want. You'll have these nice scraps, too."

    Whether you like it or not, MLS is a summer league, and is doing quite well as such. Lots of people are used to going to league games in the summer, and summer has become the accepted, traditional season for pro soccer in America. Your guess of how many fans would like to change the MLS season is a piss-poor reason for doing it, and, no matter how much you want to pretend different, is not one iota more valid than LordRobin's desire to watch MLS games in the summer.
     
  16. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Yes incremental and less risky changes -- such as playing MLS Cup after Thanksgiving and/or starting the season earlier and earlier each successive spring -- are the way things tend to get done.

    Over time, if MLS finds itself making decisions to play even later (beyond just the first weekend of Dec) and even earlier (ahead of March 10 or even into late-Feb) each calendar year, how would the "big change" to a summer off-season and a long mid-season winter break really be perceived as all that risky?

    So where does the business of MLS currently sit, in terms of its size and possible level of aversion to change -- if we were to hypothetically assume that the MLS BoG were perhaps analyzing/discussing the idea of switching to a fall-spring season (or conversely maintaining their current spring-fall) schedule?
     
  17. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    If that's the way I am coming off, I'd suggest you are mid-reading my posts, and/or I am not expressing myself clearly.

    I'm suggesting that we actually have little imput or control over what MLS does or does not decide to do with their season schedule.

    And any decisions the league makes will be made first and foremost with the mission of maintaining (and/or expanding) the overall business success of MLS.

    Certainly. But on the whole aren't the summer months actually some of the weaker average attendance months in the league's history?
    (Very nice graphical representation of the data here, thanks Kenn.)
    Or have things changed in the recent seasons?

    Yes, for 17 seasons MLS has been a summer league, although it took 2 weeks off in June 2010. And doing more and bigger things like that (a regular summer break of some sort from league play) might actually become the new reality for MLS in the years ahead.

    I'd suggest that what "has become the accepted, traditional season for pro soccer in America" is not all that strong of a tradition, and one that is potentially open for modification and a new general acceptance of a to-be-established tradition. Ymmv.

    I never said one opinion or desire was any more valid than the other, did I?

    I simply stated that not everyone shares to same opinions as LordRobin (just as admittedly not everyone shares the same opinions with anyone/everyone on any matter).
     
  18. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

    Jun 8, 2000
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why are you ignoring other leagues besides MLS? The USL leagues, the current NASL, the current NPSL, the APSL before that, the NASL and ASL before that, the USA and NPSL before that, all had summer seasons, too. For you to imply that MLS is the only contributor to the tradition of summer league soccer in America is ignorant, willful or otherwise.
     
  19. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006

    To me, your posts on Rodriguez's presentation are the most interesting in the thread Andy. If you see any of this made available online, please post a link.
     
  20. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Just trying to focus on the forum in which I am posting.

    For the business of MLS (especially going forward), how relevant are the traditions of the lower level leagues, or any of the top tier leagues that came and went before MLS was launched?

    I'd suggest that a recognition and analysis of the 2-week break in June 2010 that MLS took is far more useful and relevant to this discussion than any/all off the assorted "summer schedules/traditions" of all those other leagues you listed.
     
  21. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Agreed.

    And if Wynalda's ranting (or anything) leads (or in any way helps to lead directly to indirectly) to more MLS transparency and information being shared publicly, then I'd say that is a very good thing.
     
  22. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

    Jun 8, 2000
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They have firmly established the tradition and widespread perception that outdoor pro soccer in America is a summer sport. You can downplay the perceptions of the American soccer fan base (and, to a large extent, team owners and administrators) if you want to, but it wouldn't make much logical sense to do so.

    Nor would it make sense to ignore the importance of the inertia that Andy mentioned earlier. Like it or not, changing MLS's schedule to fall-spring would mean a seismic shift in the sport as a whole in this country. Unless the evidence that the shift would improve things for MLS is pretty damned conclusive (and to this point it is far from anything close to that), it wouldn't be as easy as you (or certainly Wynalda) seem to think.
     
  23. tab5g

    tab5g Member+

    May 17, 2002
    Are there also not honest perceptions that soccer (globally especially, but also among certain/many fans of the game in this country) is or should/could be pretty much a year-round sport?

    I am not meaning to imply that it would be "easy" -- but rather that it may indeed be quite possible for MLS to establish a new domestic schedule/tradition if it wanted to do so.

    Did you gloss over my earlier reply to Andy's "inertia" post?

     
  24. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One other thing I can't recall ever seeing discussed.

    I would argue that MLS has done about as well as they could possibly do, at this point, in capturing the "US-centric" soccer fan. In order for MLS to take a Great Leap Forward, I think, it would have to start capturing more of those fans who watch the Prem or the MFL or La Liga on a regular basis but don't follow MLS. These fans would primarily, I think, be eyeball fans rather than fanny fans. IOW, they'll be TV viewers rather than attendees, because that's how they're soccer fans now.

    Obviously there are alot of assumptions I've made, and I'm not really confident in them. But here's the thing...in thinking about moving the games we now play in June, July, and August to November, February, and March, we need to think about how such a move would affect those two distinct audiences (I would argue it's 3 distinct audiences, with MFL fans being their own category.)

    Maybe I'm wrong about MLS doing a really good job with US-centric fans, and they'd do better with this segment if they moved the schedule. Let's discuss that.

    I expect moving matches and being in direct competition with European soccer would be a big negative with those fans who follow those leagues. But let's discuss that.
     
  25. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

    Jun 8, 2000
    Lafayette, Louisiana
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The perception globally is irrelevant to this discussion (as it is in most discussions regarding how MLS should run their league). Nice attempt at equivalency, though.

    Just like pro/rel, or playing independent of FIFA or any number of other bad ideas. So TF what?

    No, I just didn't see anything substantive enough to consider it a rebuttal to what Andy said. I still don't.
     

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