In JC we trust. The AJAX Amsterdam Thread [R]

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by JC-14, Oct 25, 2011.

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  1. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    LOL at Joep and his happy face. :p "Steven ter Have is about to come in a min." *excited face* haha.

    Wow speaking of Blind, he's not sure of his job anymore? Latest about Cruyff is that he wants to quit the RvC if the other members stay on.
     
  2. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Bulykin is out, Boerrigter is out, de Jong is out, Sigthorsson is out, Boilesen is out; who is left to play against Lyon on Tuesday? Lodeiro is the striker? Is Ozbilitz healthy yet? He's played the position during the preseason. I guess we're going to field an attack of wingers and midfielders and pray for the best.
     
  3. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    It was the opinion of Blinds colleagues and the staff at De Toekomst that Blind is untrustworthy. Turns out they were right, negotiating behind their backs to become their boss.
     
  4. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Lodeiro was awesome. So yes please.
     
  5. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Davids just accused Cruijff of being racist. Man, just when you think you've reached rockbottom..
     
  6. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Whaaa??? When did that happen?
    So who do we play instead? Let's hope Ozbiliz is fit in time, cause I really don't want to see Ebecilio start a game this important
     
  7. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'd love to see something like this against Lyon:
    [​IMG]
     
  8. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Ten Have says that Cruyff told Davids the only reason he's in the RvC is because he's black. Whether that's true or not is not even relevant I guess. Either way, oh dear.
     
  9. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Cruyff is our hero, but he's proven to be far from a saint. I don't think Davids is making this up and I can honestly see Cruyff saying stupid things like this during one of his rages.

    Van Praag wants them to work together and I have more hope of him bringing the 2 together than Molenaar (who I admire, but he's obviously biased). Jack vs. Arno Vermeulen was also cringeworthy.

    It's a shame that Coronel and his colleagues has stepped down, yet another 3 positions to be filled.
     
  10. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    We only need a draw (albeit at least 1 - 1). I don't think such a side can cope against Lyons physical presence. Since we will probably have to defend more I think we can hit them on the counter and with both Ebecilio and Lukoki on board we can use their pace to trouble Lyon.
     
  11. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Ten Have just came live on the Studio Voetbal talkshow to confirm that Cruyff really said that. I am baffled to be honest, whether it's true or not.

    You know the thing is, at a football club you do need an almost dictatorial entity to decide things. At Ajax with all its different management structures it just does not work. All the Van Gaal vs Cruyff debate and who's right or not is pointless. The bottom line is Ajax needs to unlist from the stock exchange. Get back to your traditional football management.
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Boerrigter hurt his back last week and had to pull out of the NT. FdB is leaving him home because he cannot start. I don't know whether Ozzie is fully healthy yet or not. He played in the middle front during the preseason and is our "pocket Messi." I think he has more to offer than Lodeiro at that position. From what I have seen of Serero I don't think he has the quality. He's just too slight and gets pushed off the ball way to easily. Assuming these 11 are healthy I would prefer:
    Ebecilio - Ozzie - Sulejmani
    Eriksen - Enoh - Lodeiro
    Anita - Vertonghen - Alderweireld - vdW
    Cillessen

    I think FdB will continue to use both Vermeer and Janssen for this game unfortunately.
     
  13. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    That's a lot of shorties though against what is arguably the most physical side of Ligue 1, there's a big chance that we will be overrun and overpowered.
     
  14. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    We would still need the business savy kind of people like Ten Have. Ajax has too many cliques, that's the main problem.
     
  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    The bottom line has to be the financial aspects of running the club so that it stays solvent and can afford to run the youth academy and compete for the Eredivisie title evey year. Euro football will always take care of itself as long as the club is competitive. Coronel and van den Boog did get the financial side of things in shape but there are two problems with the club:
    1. the complicated organizational structure that is mandated by the bylaws of incorporation when the club was listed on the exchange and shares sold; but the bigger problem is......................................
    2. JC who says what he wants and wants what he says; his iconic presence will always permeate the club and that's not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is he is not prepared to spend the large amount of time to see things through and other Board members are skeptical of his choices for key positions on the club.

    I'm in agreement with Neeskens that the first step has to be taking the club private (assuming it will not cost too much) and putting a proper management structure in place without these multiple layers of decision making.
     
  16. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Thank god.
     
  17. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    He was really disappointing in the match against NAC. You would think he'd have something to prove but he didn't seem to contribute at all.
     
  18. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    Is not racism.

    Uncheck

    uncheck

    uncheck


    Uncheck


    What Cruyff did was making an ad hominem fallacy. It's an attack on his capacity's, rather than discussing the arguments Davids makes. He appeals to the fact that society has accepted positive discrimination and that he got the appointment on basis of that. We can make the same statement in other ways:

    "You are only here because you are the son of Balkenende"

    "You are only here because you are a female"

    "You are only here because your father runs this company"

    "You are only here because you look cute"

    It's all ad hominem. Attacking intelligence or ability, but not to attack his race. It is funny enough maybe an attack on his friend Molenaar, who was in charge of the appointments.

    The word "zwart" has some kind of a loaded meaning in the Netherlands. However I have been called white many times in my life and have never taken offence from that. I think it still takes emotional healing before the objectiveness of some ones skin color is seen as just that.

    What I am struck by is that in the RvC there is somebody with legal expertise and doesn't bring the remark of Cruyff with the remark to the public that they didn't stop the meeting because it was no racism. They bring it in a way so it can spin. They want to hurt him. If I read NOS they do use the term racism without checking if the claim of Davids in fact is racism in a legal way:

    Racistische taal Cruijff tegen Davids

    That guy at the table (don't know his name) of Studio Football experienced almost an orgasm when he could bring the news what Cruyff exactly said to Davids.

    We will see what will happen now, but in this case I have made up my mind and I am calling it no racism.
     
  19. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    @DRB - it may not be defined in The Netherlands as racism but if that comment is grounds for dismissal from employment in the United States since it does relate to the person's racial identity and allegation that preferential treatment has been given. I know that this was an explicit example in the employee's handbook at my last place of work (I'm on pension now and retired) since it is considered to be demeaning.
     
  20. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Arno Vermeulen. He is a pitiful excuse for a journalist with a personal vendetta ever since Cruijff quit doing commentary for the NOS.

    I agree with your reasoning that it's not racism. Everyone knows Cruijff isn't a racist. Ask Rijkaard.

    But what's worse is that this discussion distracts from what's really important and that is the fact that the RvC have demonstrated to be untrustworthy liars who have created dissension and instability through the entire club and it's future and who need to be removed from their positions asap.
     
  21. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    Looks like what I envisioned could happen, may come true.. :D

    Eind goed, al goed? :p
     
  22. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    Yes demeaning is the goal of ad hominem. They were probably in a word fight over a decision.

    But do you agree with me it is not racism? If not, can you be very, very specific with an official definition you use and pinpoint for me how the quote of Cruyff qualifies as racism in your opinion? It's important to get clarity on the matter.
     
  23. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    What a coincidence btw that Davids brought racism up earlier today and Ten Have calls in to confirm it life in the most watched football talk show in the country under the supervision of the biggest Cruijff hater in the media. Makes one wonder if Burson-Marsteller is still under contract.
     
  24. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'm not making that point but rather employment rules of most all companies in the US list speech demeaning of another employee as a dismissible offense. It does not have to be overt racism but this particular comment is borderline in that it singles out a person because of his/her race, religion, or ethnicity. Regardless of the definition, as I noted JC would have been terminated by most US employers for a statement such as that. Given the racial issues that have arisen with the Dutch NT in the past, he should have known better than to say what he said. Far better would have been, "Edgar Davids you are a bigger fool than I ever thought." Conveys the same thing without the racial tinge.
     
  25. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    It's either racism or not. Your approach would not hold in the court of law. The judge will ask you what you claim and when you call racism you have to pick up the JC quote and make it qualify for the definition there is for it. You can't say "Well here in the US he would get fired as it is demeaning". Yes, that maybe true and that is maybe wrong or right (as in the Netherlands he would probably also as ten Have hinted at something like that), but Dutch media are now going to scream racism and in that case I want it to be true. You can't say it's borderline this or that. If you don't come up with a definition where it follows from than you don't have a case. Then we have to move on and calling it for what it is: an attack on his ability or knowledge to have better judgement on the matter than Cruyff or to be in the group at all.
     

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