Does Messi need to win a world cup to be considered the Greatest?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by panabean, Jun 5, 2011.

  1. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

    Dec 5, 2005
    Macondo
    Moishe, this guy is claiming Messi has won nothing worth talking about. Are people supposed to that that seriously? He claims Messi is marketing tool and that he's already passed his peak? Really? You get where this guy is coming from?

    None of those claims make any sense in a sane world which he clearly doesn't live in.
     
  2. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    post was deleted for some reason. i'll do it again
     
  3. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    Not really , the balance between south american clubs and europeans is quite huge right now in every aspect. Although Santos can be better than most average teams, to compare it to the likes of Barca, Madrid, Chelsea, Milan or etc it's stretching it. He's only argument thus far to support that Santos was a top 10 team was market value, which is a pretty poor justification as I explained before.
    In the EPL i see Santos at mid-table at best.
     
  4. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I get what you are saying but with who ? Apart from Maradona, do you think that Alvarez, Espindola, Giusti and Saggioratto were enough to build some type of South American dynasty ? That team was Diego and the rest, and that wheel only rolled as far as he would take them!


    And the only way that Argentinos Jrs. was able to obtain better players, built better training facilities, gymnasiums, etc. was to put Diego on the market for sale. Thanks to all the money that they received for him, then that’s what occurred. Because when he was a player for Los Bichos, the conditions for training were terrible.

    Of course, we would have loved to see him stay - arguably the best era of Diego as a player – he himself said this back in 1987 - but this is a business and clubs and management will always put that ahead of any hopes and dreams that the fans may have.
     
  5. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    About training condition with Maradona, the first "ball" he used to practice his skills made of a sewing rag clothes ... Gosh ... Imagine if he got "raised and trained" by Barca, Real or ManU like Messi , Raul or Giggs/Beckham???
     
  6. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I prefer it the Argentine way, gave him the edge and inventiveness to become the greatest.
     
  7. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Which one of those you mentioned is a greater player than Messi?

    And the French would not dominate any best DM of all-time list, there are many other nations with several greats at that position. I can think of Tigana (top ten), along with Viera and Deschamps as locks, and that's about it.
     
  8. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I don't want to create a pointless discussion, so I'll say Zidane and finish at that.

    I have four such players in the top 10: Vieira, Deschamps, Tigana, Makelele. But that's really way off-topic.
     
  9. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Not quite sure of what you meant "Argentina way"?

    it's just fact (coincidence?) that some great legends came from "poor" ghetto and lack of support:
    - Pele was so busy doing shoeshine up to 11yrs old - started profession career at 15 - First WC at 17
    - Garrincha practiced his skills with whatever in some jungle/backyard until rumors spread out to some Scouts ...
    - Diego Maradona did not have a so called "ball" to practice, and started professional career at 15 - and was left out at WC78 (at 16-17)
    - Ronaldo learned and practiced his own tricks in some corner streets in Brazil up to 14 to be spot in to Brazil league B. At 17 called up to WC94
     
  10. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

    Dec 5, 2005
    Macondo
    You really are something else. You're killing Messi all over the place for his performances for Argentina ignoring most of what he's done for club yet you go and mention Makelele as a top 10 in his position when he did nothing for France and who's biggest glory came from playing a few years in an inredible Chelsea squad.

    Placing Makelele over Deschamps goes against everything you've been arguing so far in multiple threads. Where is your consistency?
     
  11. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Wow. Your argument is totally absurd. And constant mistaking of your inability to understand what you read as my inconsistency is hilarious. Nonetheless I said the DM discussion is way off-topic so I'll refrain from diving deeper into the subject. The position that Makelele did nothing for France is laughable, but then again it just proves that the guy never gets the recognition he deserves.
     
  12. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    What is this guy smoking or drinking? Seriously, can he be any more of "hater" or what?

    Go ahead, humor us more, pal.

    Maybe you should think twice before making comments and be more clear in what you have to say.

    Makelele was a good DM, but he was only 4th on the depth chart for his position for France during his time. Before him there were Deschamps, Petit and Viera. As for All-time ranking, Tigana and Fernandez were better than him also as far as DMs.
     
  13. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    LOL, Makelele as a top ten player in his position of all time. Has got to be the stupidiest thing someone has posted in recent times here (and that's saying a lot). Perhaps the reason Makelele doesn't get all that recognition is because he was not a true great.
     
  14. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with him but I think I know where he's trying to come from. The peak thing he's clearly talking out his ass but with the marketing thingy I think it's as applicable to most of this generations players. They benefit from the advent of multimedia in ways other generations couldn't fathom. That may have an effect on how some players are viewed in a light they may not be worthy of. Messi and to a lesser degree CR7 are exempt as they are truly blessed players.

    Comparing MOST teams in Europe to those sides is stretching it. Take away those clubs and Europe offers some good teams but nothing in terms of quality that wow's me. If you look at Santos solely on football merit then there is an argument to be made that they are a top ten team. As far as Santos being at best a mid table team in the EPL, that might be true but I could also see this recent Santos team making noise in Holland, France, Portugal. Styles make games and while the hard and fast of the EPL doesn't suit them, the more open game of those other leagues plays in to Santo's strength.
     
  15. y.o.n.k.o

    y.o.n.k.o Member

    Jan 12, 2010
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Clearly, the modern player that has benefited the most from this is David Beckham. I'm not going to dispute that modern video technology has served as great benefit to many players nowadays.

    The funny thing is that a Santos fan is talking all this crap about Messi being just a marketing tool and hasn't won anything worth talking about, when his club's biggest star is actually the biggest marketing tool and all hype at the moment - Neymar.

    Messi has earned everything he has got, with abilities and brilliant performances. He deserves to be compared to all-time greats. All nostalgic fans and "haters" better hope that he doesn't continue to rack up achievements (team and individual), especially a WC title (with a performance to match/go along) because then he really would have a pretty strong case to be amongst some of the best of all-time like Pele and Maradona.
     
  16. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    Well thats what he was claiming, it is stretching it we seem to agree.
    I can name also a whole lot of teams that are not in the elite that are way above Santos but i won't go into detail since it's obvious.
     
  17. biddut2002

    biddut2002 New Member

    Oct 2, 2011
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Of course, I believe that lionel messi will win world cup in 2014 in brazil. Because then he will best player in the world.
     
  18. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    maybe the question should to be:

    does Messi need a great world cup ( not only win ) to overcome player like Ronaldo R9 or Eusebio for example ?

    in the other words, what if Messi mantain his current form until his 30s but won't play a great world cup or copa america ?
    where he will be rank among all timers, when his longevity will be superior againt many of them ?
     
  19. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    best player in the world?
     
  20. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yes he does, without a great WC, not a chance.
     
  21. biddut2002

    biddut2002 New Member

    Oct 2, 2011
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    This is a mater of time for Lionel Messi to win world cup in 2014.
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    For his talents he should at least SHINE BIG in that tournament and deserve to win it if he would - providedly Argentina are on good track with many good young players on the way, and all they need is a fairly good coach + Messi's growing up in leadership and playmaking.
     
  23. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    "does Messi need a great world cup ( not only win ) to overcome player like Ronaldo R9 or Eusebio for example ?
    in the other words, what if Messi mantain his current form until his 30s but won't play a great world cup or copa america ?
    where he will be rank among all timers, when his longevity will be superior againt many of them ?"

    what do You think about that James ?
     
  24. biddut2002

    biddut2002 New Member

    Oct 2, 2011
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    of course he will win
     
  25. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Sensational match by Messi against a respectable opponent (Chile) last night. If this is the start for him as the leader of Argentina under a new coach, it's a very promising one.
     

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