@Moishe You can't rule out a player instantly just because he is playing in a talented team, I think it's agreed that playing in a smaller team and winning something important makes it more admirable. But if that were the logic Cruyff wouldn't be considered a football legend, neither would Di Stefano at Real madrid, hell Pele had amazing partners at Santos with Zito, Pepe, Coutinho and not mentioning the Brasilian NT. I think also think the "Maradona played with a bunch of scrubs at Napoli" its completely exaggerated, he too had great teammates Ciro Ferrara, Bagni, Careca, De Napoli to name a few. My point is that no player can single-handily win something big with a poor team, they have to be at least decent to show your worth and display your talent, thats why I think again if Messi wins the WC with Arg he'll get that deserved recognition, and rightfully so.
Brother, I am living in the present. Do not include our league with the rest of Latin America in terms of your so-called "not so competitive and not too hard" label, please. Economically, only our league and Mexico's (technically) are strong enough to not only keep our players but to repatriate them from elsewhere with some gas left as well as hiring talented foreigners. For example, since 1980 (when the Libertadores started being taken seriously by EVERYONE), our league has had 11 winning squads compared to Argentina's 9, Uruguay's 4 and the 4 for everyone else. Don't compare that to, say, Peru, where any decent player won't spend more than 1 season in your league. It is not our fault the rest of the continent lacks any type of vision. Seeing that a Paraguayan runs CONMEBOL explains why our competitions are still not as great as they could be and our federation is becoming smarter in simply focusing on our clubs and national/state competitions. After all, clubs participating in the Brasileirao earned far more than winning the Libertadores. The same relation of income and marketing cannot be said for elsewhere in Latin America. Apart from us in the western hemisphere, only the MLS can say they earn significant income in recent seasons and I see them becoming on par with us in 5-10 years the way they are going. I see you have listed every achievement Messi has earned. Impressive. But Pele and Santos' treble of the Paulista, Taca Brasil and Libertadores in 1962 far outmatches all of that. We became the first club in the world to win the continental treble. We became the first club in the world to win four tournaments out of four in a season when we add the Intercontinental Cup. We became the first club in the world to achieve a treble of Golden Boots in a season (Pele with 37 goals in the Paulista, Coutinho with 7 goals for the Taca Brasil, Coutinho with 6 goals for the Libertadores and Pele with 3 goals for the IC). Pele, Pepe, Gilmar, Coutinho, Mengalvio, Zito and Mauro Ramos are, still, the only players to win the treble AND the World Cup during the same season, a record that will be unlikely matched anytime soon. Achievements at every level. Club level, national team level and personal level. Besides, Messi doesn't exactly qualify as legendary. He is just a marketing tool, bro. ...I'm sorry but Pele's 1962 season far outweighs anything Messi has or will do in the future, never mind his other seasons or his three world cups. And he did it in a far more harder league than today's La Liga. Pele did it against the Botafogo of Didi, Garrincha, Nilton Santos and Amarildo, the Sao Paulo of Sani, De Sordi and Jurandir, the Palmeiras of Djalma Santos, Mazzola and Zequina, the Vasco da Gama of Hiderarldo Bellini, Orlando and Vava, and the Flamengo of Mario Zagallo, Moacir, Joel Martins and Dida. Many teams with players easily in the top 25 players of all time that if it weren't for Os Santasticos, it would have been a new team winning our league each year. Instead, we are still the only club to win the Brasileirao 5 consecutive times. Never mind the Libertadores (when you really were the away team) against the Independiente of Zerrillo, Luis Suarez and Mario Rodriguez, Boca which had Orlando, Antonio Rattin, Jose Sanfilippo, the Penarol of Pedro Rocha, Juan Lezcano, Alberto Spencer, Juan Joya and Omar Caetano, Universidad Catolica, Cero Porteno, Universitario, etc. We did all of that against defenders who wouldn't think twice about kicking the crap out of you (ranging from honorable but hard defenders like Rattin to complete neanderthals like Nobby Styles). Never mind that we did it with equipment much harder to work with. There is a reason why our team has been paid homemage across five continents raging from clubs and training institutions being named after us to having organized fanfare from Hong Kong to New York. Just take a look at our record here (which includes games vs European and South America sides...it is very good). Who is Messi and Barcelona acting so "powerful" against? Getafe? Villareal? Osasuna? Canary Islands? Come on, man....come on...
LOL Oh yeah, the Brasilian league is indeed one of the best if not the best in our continent, but even they don't match the top leagues in Europe. In every sense of the world. Perhaps you're better at producing young talents and selling them to Europe with a huge price tag , I give you that. Since that's your main resource for income Stop watching Globo TV, it deceives the perception of Brazilian people towards football. They own TV rights to Brazilian league, thus, they make you think it’s the best one in the World and in reality historically they may have a few clubs that are top class but nowadays if we put the Spanish, Italian , English , even the German with the current 2011 Brasilian league looks average at best and fails to outdo them in every category, economically, and talent-wise. Though the Brasilian league may more competitive, but being competitive does not necessarily make it good, the clubs level on the weak side, not the strong one, team and squad wise.
For your information, Santos has a market value of 82 million Euros. That surpasses every club in the Dutch Eredivisie and the English Football League Championship, most of the clubs in Portugal's Primeira Liga, Ukraine's Premyer-Liha, Turkey's Süper Lig, Russia's Premier League and France's Ligue 1, as well as over half the clubs in Germany's Fußball-Bundesliga, Italy's Serie A, Spain's La Liga and England's Premier League. And this is a club from a small city of over 400,000. As far as leagues go, yes, the Premier League, La Liga, Seria A, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 are far superior to us. But the Primeira Liga, Premyer-Liha, Süper Lig and Russia's Premier League, take or give 5-10 players with heavy value, are the same as us. Everyone else falls hard. The only other league in America that can also do some major front, economically, is the Mexican League. From there, it is many European and Asian leagues before we hit the Argentinian league and even lower for the rest. So yes...we are not the best or among the elite...but we are definetly top 10. And you are wrong: our league's focus is no longer about sending players to Europe but to retain them. If not forever, for as long as possible so we can enjoy them. Personally, I think it is sad that a national league only lives to do just that: give away your fruits cheaply. That is why Boca Juniors is the most foolish club to ever exist.
Market value is a misleading statistic. The Brasilian league tend to overprice all their players, specially young. If a player underperforms or turns out to be not up to the initial standards the market price instantly drops. Again I agree Brasilian league it's one of the best if not the best in South America. I can't believe you just used that as an argument. How is Santos on top 10 if you claim not to be in the Elite lmao. You know that there are more than 10 big teams in all Europe right? Here's some teams that have a higher market value that are realtively small and not in the Elite. Fenerbache, Besiktas, Galatasaray Villareal, Malaga, Atletico Madrid, Sevilla, Valencia, Atletic Bilbao, Udinese, Lazio, Genoa, Lille, etc I literally could pick over 30 teams but I'm too bored to continue, I hope you get my point. There are more factors that tells you how good the whole club even as business is than adding together all the inflated players value the club themselves set. Market value of players is a very shaky statistic. And i'm not talking about Santos, don't get me wrong , im talking about teams in general. Well i'll go to sleep.
I haven't ruled him out. If you want to use team awards as part of a players barometer of greatness then the criteria is greatly skewed towards factors that the player can't always control. Let their status as a player be based on their individual ability and accomplishment. That levels the playing field a lot more, wouldn't you say. Take away all the fluff earned at Barca and he's arguably still the most talented player of the past decade for sure and possibly the last 20 years. It's not just admirable, it's a harder accomplishment to fulfill and should be factored in. You surely can't deny that right? Swap Kun and Messi for example. Let's say Kun won all those team trophies, does that now mean he's the better player than Messi? No, it just means he was in the right place at the right time. In of itself it isn't the only criteria but those players are looked upon the way they are because of how they individually performed and not by what they won as a team. I've long held that Diego didn't play with scrubs at Napoli. I've also argued on many occasions that the 1986 WC squad wasn't made up of junk players. That's the bigger myth than his teammates at Napoli. Napoli was a solid side but from a talent perspective they still didn't have the depth that many of the "big" clubs had. Oh they can, just not with the frequency that someone playing with a talent laden team can. Honestly it isn't even about the winning, it's about being able to put a team in a position to win that is more impressive to me. This might be the only part we've not been on the same page on. It's not just enough that Messi wins a WC, it's about how he wins it. It isn't that Diego simply just won a WC, it's how he won it. That's the bar that has been set, that's the performance that put Diego to the lofty status he's at. If it's simply about being on a team that wins a trophy then Claude Makele is an all-time great. Love me some Claude but we know that's not true right?
What a load of crap. It's easy to not take something seriously when you haven't been able to win it. That's river plate logic. Foolish? Maybe, but at least we still manage to have a more impressive Libertadores record than Santos......after 1980 Actually how many international trophies has Santos won post 1980?
Lionel Messi got everything. Now need a world cup for Argentine where Lionel Messi is Captain. He will place the position Pele, Maradone, and Messi
I would think that Messi has shown enough individual ability and accomplished enough individual achievements. But don't forget that certain individual achievements are awarded based on team success as one of the criteria. Same can be said about an all-time status. Take away Argentina's WC title from 1986 with Maradona and he wont be in the never-ending two-way discussion with Pele as the all-time best/greatest player. Why is it harder? Isn't it also about being at the right place at the right place even with a lesser team? Isn't it also about circumstantial factors from one side as well as from your main competitors? Hypothetically, if we swapped Kun with Messi, maybe Barca wont be as strong (as they have been with Messi) and maybe Atletico M would be stronger (than they were with Kun or even Torres). Isn't Messi looked at that way too? If not, why not? The argument against him is always "but he plays for Barca", "he plays with Xavi and Iniesta", "it's the Barca system", etc. Name one player who has won on his own with a poor team. What if Maradona didn't win WC 1986? I agree, Messi just winning a WC is not enough. His performance at a WC is more important to his all-time status. He could increase this status more with a great WC performance (but no title) than with a WC trophy but no performance. However, for Argentina to win another WC title, they would need Messi to perform to a high level (amongst other things), maybe not "Barca level" but close to it. Wouldn't you say? I just can't see Argentina winning it without Messi performing.......
Take away all the fluff earned at Barca and watch him play for Argentina and he isn't even in the top 50 best players of the last 20 years losing out to the likes of Stoichkov, Okocha, Owen and half the 1998 French WC winning team. Just shows that he has a long way to go. A World Cup Golden Boot may help him be named next to Maradona, but he is way off being anywhere close to Pele. Right now he isn't even in Eusebio territory. And honestly - Maradona vs Pele is hardly even a debate, as apart from Argentinians almost no-one puts Maradona ahead of Pele. Well... in his position as a DM Claude Makelele is an all-time great (easily top 5 in history). The argument against Messi is that he plays at the best team in the world. He is their best player, but its not hard to win all the time, if you are surrounded by the best players in the world (including the entire World Champions Spanish national team) and play in the most financially lopsided league out there. Basically he has victory handed out to him on a silver platter and all he has to do is take the spoils. However the minute he wears an Argentinian t-shirt playing with a top world team (but not the best) with top world class players (but not the best) he fails to perform.
We have a major hater here, and a retard based on the last bolded comment. Anyways, a little memento for you to enjoy: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6hZa6B4Ol0"]WordCup 2006 Argentina 6 : 0 Serbia and Montenegro Highlight - YouTube[/ame]
Really? Against Serbia? Messi entered when the score was 3:0 and Serbia was rolling over and letting Argentina do whatever they want. Now to the bolded: MICHAEL OWEN: Is this even disputable? He has scored goals in 4 tournaments in a row. 4 World Cup goals and 2 Euro goals (all of those goal very important goal). Meanwhile Messi has one meaningless WC goal and 2 Copa America goals with the same amount of tournaments behind him. JJ OKOCHA: I mentioned Okocha not by chance. He played some mesmerizing football for his national team, but it didn't come to any use when it mattered during the World Cup (sort of like Messi). Similarly to Messi he also has an Olympic gold behind his belt. Nonetheless unlike Messi he has won Nigeria a Cup of Nations (1994), led them once to the final (2000, loss after a controversial penalty shootout), been topscorer of the tournament once and raked up multiple key assists. Hence he has achieved more than Messi has for his national team. HALF THE FRENCH TEAM: Vieira, Djorkaeff, Zidane, Deschamps, Desailly, Pires, Henry, Thuram, Barthez and even Petit, Lizarazu or Lebouef have done more for France than Messi has done for Argentina. It's undisputable. When Messi scores over 600 goals for Barcelona (or at least 450 goals in the league, cup and champions league combined), over 40 goals for Argentina and scores 9 goals at a World Cup come back to me on this one. So far he isn't even halfway there, but he has time on his hands... This one has nothing to do with Messi. Makelele is an all-time great DM. At least appreciate the guy for what he was. Don't be like a RM retard, who thinks he was useless for his team, sells him for peanuts and is suddenly surprised you can't seem to win anything anymore.
Burco: What is wrong with you people? What's with all this Claude Makelele hate? He is one of the best DMs in football history. How blind can you be? Of course he'll never be given a Zidane, Maradona, Ronaldo status. But at least acknowledge that for what his role was in the team he was the one of the best in the business.
Messi is a greater player than Owen, Henry, or any of the others by far. Owen also scored more goals at the WC than Zidane, that does not make him better than the Frenchman. For the Eusebio comment, you worded it like Eusebio > Maradona, in which case you're just bitter. I agree that Messi has not reached Eusebio's level yet, but he has time. To me, a great WC performance, which must include winning it, puts him in the top ten of all time. Further success, such as winning the Copa America, a couple more CL's, would put him somewhere in the top six. And Makelele was only the third best French DM of his generation, behind Viera and Deschamps, how on earth is he going to be top five of all time? After all, he as not good enough to make the French NT for WC98 or EC00. I haven't bothered to make a list, but off the top of my head he's not even top fifty all time.
Who's Messy again? Seriously, though, one thing he definetely does not have is time. He is 24 and has yet to win nothing worth talking about. He has one more world cup on him but the stars wouldn't suddenly align. Heck! If anything, he has already passed his peak or already passed it.
He doesn't buy in to the Messi is god camp so now he's a troll? It really is okay for some people to not think Messi is the messiah.
Well I think most of us agree (or think) Messi is "messiah" for Barca, the debate they used is when Messi in Argentina shirt! Is he? ... or it's always been like ... "hopefully will he ... be sooner"?!
I think some people's view becomes fogged by his performances and results with Barca. Those same people think that all he has to do is win a WC in his in that small elite group. I disagree, I don't think the Cup in of itself is enough. Looking at Diego, it wasn't simply that he won it, it's how he won that has made his legend. Not simply coming up huge in the finals but coming up huge in each and every match.
Very true, as Cruyff , Eusebio Puskas were... the live example in this case. The only exception left was Di Stefano - ahem he won 5UCL's, and was key to this Real Madrid success and so to become the biggest club in the world now
Thank you! Messi, once again, is just a marketing tool. Nothing less, nothing more. He will never be considered among the 50 all-time best players in the sport, much less be on par with Diego Maradona. I would also venture far enough to say that if it weren't for the disgusting way the 1978 WC was ran (which was ugly from top to bottom), Maradona would have had two World Cups under his name. And I could have seen Argentinos Juniors become an Argentine version of what is Santos. Unfortunetely, and most people can't seem to get this, the "if's", "maybes" and "somedays" doesn't exist. Action talks and bullshit walks. Even so, Argentina made it to two finals in a row defeating every then former world champion in those two editions.
I don't have a problem with different opinions, i actually like that for a debate. But when you say 2 Ballon D'or are nothing of importance and Santos are currently one of the best 10 teams in the world my trolling radar goes off. btw if anything Neymar is more of a marketing tool right now than any other player in the world.
I read his posts. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says but I do get where he's coming from. For the exception of the aforementioned big clubs, most of what I've seen of European football is no better and mostly no worse than what I can pick from South American matches. As for Santos, he can probably make a pretty good argument for why they are a top ten side than I think you can that they aren't.....aside from their not being in Europe.
Yes, Messi is a greater player than MOST (not all) that were mentioned. But for their national side they have been the better players. BTW: Actually Zidane scored 5 goals at the World Cup compared to Owen's 4. Plus Zidane was a midfielder, while Owen is a striker. Never worded it like that. Nonetheless I do believe that Maradona is way ahead of the pack, whilst I believe that only Pele is way ahead, while Maradona is in a group of players behind him. Last thing I have to say about this, so I don't derail the thread. a) Makelele was off the radar until his move to RM in 2000. b) The French would dominate any best DM in history list. c) Personally I place Makelele above Vieira or Deschamps. d) I'm not the only one who thinks Makelele is a top 5 DM, ie: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-the-top-10-defensive-midfielders-of-all-time or our own bigsoccer: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1245771.html