Does Messi need to win a world cup to be considered the Greatest?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by panabean, Jun 5, 2011.

  1. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    I don't think he does. But popular opinion is that yeah and thats all that matters really. As response to the OP.
     
  2. Santista1962

    Santista1962 Red Card

    Sep 9, 2011
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Popular opinion led to the execution of people because they weren't blond, blue eyed and believed in judaism or because they proved the earth was round.

    Spare me, please...:rolleyes:
     
  3. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
  4. Mysterious

    Mysterious Member

    Jun 18, 2007
    Chicago

    For the slow population (see quoted)^

    He's saying form your own opinion and don't conform. "The man who stands for nothing will fall for anything."
     
  5. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    "Does Messi need to win a world cup to be considered the Greatest?" by whom do you think that question is aimed for? If it doesn't specify it refers to everyone. ( This involves fanatics, columnists, viewers, players , the general public)
     
  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    "to be considered" yah IF ONLY IF he will win at least 1 WC with 1 great performance ( a la Pele 70, Garrinch 62, or better off Maradona 86) //??

    However he will NEVER surpass Pele in #1 spot period - if he were THE ONE then he would have already surpassed the king by now ... REALITY he is still half way to 2/3 of Pele at his best ....
     
  7. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Popular opinion on here seems to be that he can win a world cup but still wouldnt be considered the greatest
     
  8. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    Yeah right now its debatable at least. We'll have to wait till he retires or at least some more years.
     
  9. 621380

    621380 Member

    Feb 21, 2004
    germany
    against germany uruquay was denid a penalty...schnellinger with a handball...this was bad from the referee...

    the sendoffs was deserved....if you have more information where the referee has screwed uruquay in this game please let me know the actions...

    watch the videofootage and first action after a player of uruquay hit the crossbar...the german goalkeeper picked up the ball...seeler is fouled and the german keeper pick up 2 hits against his hands(or hand and face??) 2 seconds later....this is dirty and the referee did nothing..no warning , no booking..this guy was later send off...i think he was send off for his 4th foul in this game..allready booked before...

    .and the other players action against seeler later....look the video..seeler picked up a slap in his face ..the player was allready sendoff for a deliberate revanche foul against emmerich.(there excist no videofootage )...

    a highlight of this game is where haller picked up simultan hits against his legs from 2 diffrent players...if you like the 2 in row fouls where has injured pele you will enjoy this action too...lol..but only if you have the whole game on dvd or video in your collection..

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLaVQ-rF_2M"]WEST GERMANY URUGUAY 1_4 FINAL WORLD CUP 1966 - YouTube[/ame]

    santos62 never has seen the game hungary- brasil....garincha wasnt target of brutal actions and the fouls in this game was fairly even....albert was denid a penalty , the brasilian defender completly has missed to hit the ball ,anstood he hit alberts leg ..albert was in pain for a while...both teams was recalled a goal..the videofootage confirm farkas wasnt offside in a moment albert has passed the ball..i remember 2 bad fouls straight...1:..jair was badly fouled and brasil got a freekick....in a other action the player with the number 11 for hungary was badly fouled with no freekick awarded..

    definitiv one of the best games in this worldcup..hungary the better team...there was one player of hungary where has suffred a shoulder injury happend in about minute 65-70 of the game and he has played about 10 minutes with his arm in a sling where has affected his game..however hungary wasnt in danger the game turn in favor for brasil..

    santos62 negative suggestions are painful to read...
     
  10. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Excellent post!
     
  11. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    He's just mad Pele may lose his status as best player in history. Its understandable. :rolleyes:
     
  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    IF Messi would get married to Diego's daughter and HOPE to mate out the best Argentinian player ever then ... haha MAYBE Pele would start WORRYING
     
  13. Santista1962

    Santista1962 Red Card

    Sep 9, 2011
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Mad? Lol I am not worried. Pele may lose his status as the best in the history of the sport but it certainly won't be to Messi. I already named 30 players (in South America alone) that has easily done more than him and has been better and/or more significant.

    When Pele was 17, he had already won a world cup and became a key figure to that triumph. Messi?

    Exactly.

    If anyone wants to get a serious shot at Pele's crown, they would have to match at least that.

    Messi has yet to do half the stuff Pele has done, much less the above. As a matter of fact, unless a player does the above then there is no discussion whatsover.

    But much further than that, Messi is merely a product of a marketing technique that Barcelona has been trying to create for almost 3 decades. It went to shit with Maradona, didn't really work in the 90s but they got it down with Ronaldinho (and he was already an excellent player long before joining Barcelona). The strategy is to center their marketing, press and resources around one player (it is extremely hard to do so with all 11 so who gets picked is very important).

    The deal with Ronaldinho was that he not only made a great candidate but he was already an excellent player, among all times best (i.e. 2002 WC). But Messi is proving far more difficult to sell, especially since he hasn't done shit with his national team, much less its clubs. After all, if his own compatriots don't even care about him, what makes you think other remotely-successful nations will?

    Any good player is followed by loads of glory-hunters from Africa, Asia, US and Canada. Not so much in Latin America and Europe. Barcelona knows that it will need a new name to replace Messi soon. His failure with the NT is affecting his overall appeal (especially after 2010 WC and the Copa America 2011). He is 24. By the time 2014 gets around, he will be 27. If anything, Messi has already passed his peak. New names are being brought up which is why Real Madrid and Barcelona are fighting a quiet war with Santos over Neymar. He has a lot of potential.

    Fortunetly, Brazilian clubs are becoming evermore stronger so we can still retain him.

    And this marketing strategy can't really work by using a national player, much less catalan. The only reason why European competitions are given so much exposure in Asia, Africa, the US and Canada (to a lesser extent Latin America and Europe) is because it contains players from many nations. You think South Koreans would give two craps about Manchester United if Park wasn't in it? Argentina would have never heard of Barcelona if Maradona didn't sign up with them (probably the dumbest move an Argentine club ever pulled).

    Get this: players aren't just signed in clubs for ability. They get signed so other clubs (especially normally weaker ones) can't use them against them and for marketing purposes (especially when dealing with foreigners). That is why those types of clubs are so popular with football-poor nations as the above mentioned.

    South America in general could have had a lesser version of that. Only our league is realizing the potential that we have and are becoming very open about signing big foreign names in our ranks (with appropriate limitations, of course, to safeguard our producing machine). The rest of South America are too stupid, too ignorant, too retarded (1940s mentality) or simply idiotic to realize this. That is something the CBF has been keeping distance from: backward thinking.
     
  14. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You must have missed WC06, here's a quick recap: Ronaldinho was garbage. Messi has already surpassed him in success at Barca (see the 08-09 season for reference) and as a greater player in the history of the game. Messi probably won't touch Pele or Maradona, but you are off by a few planets saying that Neymar will be better than him.
     
  15. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    @Santista1962

    Yeah you named 30 players that you think are better. Key word is "you think", that has pretty much no backbone. You didn't list the accomplishments if each individual player. Just for kicks i'll give you a list of Messi's I doub't theres someone who has better accomplishments at 24.

    Club :
    La Liga - 3 times - 2004–2005, 2005–2006, 2008–2009
    Copa del Rey 1 time: 2008–2009
    UEFA Champions League 2 times: 2005–2006, 2008–2009
    Supercopa de España 3 times: 2005, 2006, 2009
    UEFA Super Cup 1 time : 2009
    FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2009

    National Team:
    FIFA U-20 World Cup: 2005
    Summer Olympics: 2008

    Individual
    U-21 European Footballer of the Year: 2007
    FIFA U-20 World Cup Top Scorer: 2005
    FIFA U-20 World Cup Player of the Tournament: 2005
    Copa América Young Player of the Tournament: 2007
    Player of the Year of Argentina: 2005, 2007
    FIFPro Special Young Player of the Year: 2006–2007, 2007–2008
    FIFPro World Young Player of the Year: 2005–2006, 2006–2007, 2007–2008
    World Soccer Young Player of the Year: 2005–2006, 2006–2007, 2007–2008
    Premio Don Balón (Best Foreign Player in La Liga): 2006–2007, 2008–2009
    EFE Trophy (Best Ibero-American Player in La Liga): 2006–2007, 2008–2009
    FIFPro World XI: 2006–2007, 2007–2008
    UEFA Team of the Year: 2007–2008
    UEFA Champions League Top Scorer: 2008–2009
    Trofeo Alfredo Di Stéfano: 2008–2009
    UEFA Club Forward of the Year: 2008–2009
    UEFA Club Footballer of the Year: 2008–2009
    LFP Best Player: 2008–2009
    LFP Best Striker: 2008–2009
    Onze d'Or: 2009
    Ballon d'Or: 2009
    World Soccer Player of the Year: 2009
    FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball: 2009
    Toyota Award: 2009
    FIFA World Player of the Year: 2009
    FIFPro World Player of the Year: 2008–09
     
  16. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I guess you've never seen any of those in action didn't you? :rolleyes:
     
  17. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    Yes I did.
     
  18. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Obviously not, else you wouldn't put overhyped European underachiever Messi on the same level as South American legends Antonio Alzamendi or Sergio Goycochea.
     
  19. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    Overhyped underachiever? only someone who doesn't know football won't acknowledged his accomplishments at his young age . Europe is right now the place where top/hardest football is played, its a fact wether you like it or not. Of course Im talking about clubs not national teams. Thats why I think IF Messi wins a World Cup, he'll be considered the best.
     
  20. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Geez --- could one make it any more clear-cut?
     
  21. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    You're living in the past sadly and not being realistic. Anyone who doesn't acknowledges that nowadays Europe is far more competitive and harder than any other place in the world is either ignorant or doesn't have cable yet.
     
  22. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    That Brazilian poster is trolling you.

    Don't fall for it.
     
  23. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

    Dec 5, 2005
    Macondo
    Talk about someone sticking to their story. I didn't know you had it in you kingkong. Hilarious really. You get a few interwebz points.

    *facepalm* I'll help you since you're ok. He's being sarcastic.
     
  24. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Damn dude you got trolled hard. That's an impressive resume' by Messi, no doubt and it's in fact one of the best you'll have seen in a very long time. Here is the problem with one of your selling points. If you are going to talk about his individual brilliance then why are you using his club titles in your argument. Is Messi at the level he is because he won those titles or is he at that level because his amazing skill and play? If this same Messi played at Getafe, Malaga or Villarreal for example and played individually at the same level yet never won but at best one or two of those titles that Barca has would his level of greatness be any less? Same player right? You see why club titles should be taken with a grain of salt.


    It's not the level of European football, it's the level of a handful of select teams. Once you get beyond those teams with the absurd purchasing power you've got some ordinary football and in a lot cases flat out shit.......just like South America. It's not as black and white as you think.
     
  25. tadm123

    tadm123 Member

    Mar 26, 2008
    Club:
    Sporting Cristal Lima
    Guess thats what happens when I have a policy of not reading post more than 3 paragraphs long. The rest was obvious trolling, damn.
     

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