By sure it's not a complete guess mate and is a good amount of material to say is a little evidence. Actually, I'm a little surprised that you say it considering your work about history of football because I believe you could also find and watch many old matches by your articles and rankings (from early 30's there is already a good amount of material from collectors and videotheques as British BFI Mediateque or Italian RAI.
No, you can't though or at least not enough to form a meaningful opinion of the relative worth of defenders. You've got more than just brief highlights (ie less than 10 minutes a game) for many of the players from the 1930s? You can use that to assess their level accurately? Which collectors have significant material of games from the 1930s? You've got written sources from the 30s to accurately compare the level of Quincoces to Hapgood or Allemandi, to the best players in France, Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia? What are the sources? For instance what written sources do you base your opinion that Quincoces in 1930-1 had an especially good season for Alaves? If you've got them, then quote them. What did they say which made you able to make a valid decision about the best player in the era?
You got a time machine or something? There isn't even much useful (A FULL GAME) video material for most players of the early 50s.
Actually, I think yes, I can. To early 30's there is enough material to form a very good own opinion, even for defenders. Maybe if you were referring to 10's or early 20's I'd agree. From the beginning I was not referring not only about brief highlights. Actually, for example, BFI had already by parts almost all of the matches since 1928. The most of the material I've had the chance to watch was because by members of Football Squads as Andrew Muir and Jon de Souza and their contacts, many of them audiovisual collectors. If you like, maybe we can contact with them by Facebook (as well I've your contact already). Are you referring about direct comparisons?, maybe doesn't exist any article. What is possible be found are old written describing each one from their own points of view highlighting their qualities and with overall comparisons, paying more attention to specific players and it's how we first can make a shortlist of possibilities. Apart of youngers Münzenberg and Janes (whom probably weren't at their peaks yet) I don't remember any highly regarded defenders from those leagues to be competitors of the previously players mentioned. It's evident we need to start from a base to make a shortlist of possibilities because it's impossible to anyone to watch every match of every player ever. You couldn't talk about an evidence so emphatically because these are not concrete comparisons by numbers as maths, all is more about impressions, even by written sources. I don't think it's meaning we couldn't have a very good idea by many clues who were better by year and much more from early 30's if we can support our opinion by many available clips. Far to be a complete guess. For third time mate, we're not discussing about the season 1930/31, but the whole year 1931, so we've to take into consideration his last semester with Deportivo Alavés and his first semester with Real Madrid. I don't have any link to put it because I never keep them and for my own resources (to make my Top 50's right now) I copy the information and then I can draw conclusions wherever were its origins. You could calculate it by these: http://info.elcorreo.com/aniversario/centenario-el-correo/1921.html Reading this, you could calculate how good was that pair, and considering for 1931 Deportivo Alavés finished a sucessful season with a less goal rout and was previously of the signing for Real Madrid as a star I could assume how good was his year. Then... http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satell...82831/jugador/JugadorLegendario/Quincoces.htm ... you could assume the dimension of his transfer to Real Madrid and his immediate succesful with the team during his first season in a prime role (so also his first semester there in 1931).
I can see that your answer is a bit sarcastic and/or annoyed, I hope you know that my intention isn't to bother you with the discussion, if not, apart we can disagree on views, there were clearly mistakes and/or omissions in your arguments as consider the season 1930/31 of Real Madrid as part of the discussion about Quincoces or the way that you imagined the difference of the divisions in Spain at that time, points which I'm sure you can check and could have a significant chance in your overall opinion correcting. By your own work your opinions are always valuable to me and if I think I'm able to modify or correct some views basing in not so accurate facts, I'll try to do, especially with people with good knowledge because maybe you can correct me in some facts also. Cheers Rob
Why do you think you need a time machine when we can only need at least a VHS ? Please, check again my last comments, that's not true. Although if you are referring with "there" to YouTube or maybe the whole internet, probably would be right.
Oscar Ruggeri 1986... Argentina Primera Division, Copa Libertadores, Intercontinental Cup, and World Cup
I'd give 2011 (so far) to Vidic, despite being a L'pool fan. If anyone says it should be David Luiz, so help me god...
How is Passarella the best defender in the world in 1976 when at the same year Figueroa was the best South American player for the 3rd consecutive time?!
All of what matches? Most matches in England were not filmed in this era. Certainly substantial amounts of footage do not survive. You're saying that the British Film Institute has recordings of most games since 1928, including those in Spain? What sort of material are we talking about. What proportion of matches are we talking about? 5 mins, 10 mins, 30 mins, whole games? I know that. I was asking what evidence there was to support the fact that he was particularly good in the first half of the year. These don't tell you anything. They tell you that he was regarded as one of the best defenders in the world and formed a legendary partnership. They tell you that Real Madrid won the title in his first season. That's it.
passarella scored 26 goals in 45 games in 1976 as a defender... its worth noting that he missed the repechaje match between River and Cruzeiro in the Copa Libertadores Final, had he been fit, the outcome would have probably been different... not saying Figueroa wasn't deserving, but its hard to say Passarella wasn't either
indication of what? in those days there was no sattelite tv or internet and the award was given by a uruguayan newspaper (as it still is today)... maybe they didn't give it to passarella because River knocked their precious Peñarol out of the Libertadores? As I said, these awards are subjective and either one would be a valid choice... the amount of talent in south america in those days was incredible so its hard to say... what an era i wish we could go back to those days
going by this can we discount any award given prior to sattelite, tv or internet? btw I dont nescesarily disagree with you
You are all right ... as 1976 marking the "near end" of great Figueroa while it was the beginning of Passarella. It could go eitehr way ... and indeed Figueroa won it.
It's not true mate, the most of the big games in England were at least briefly filmed since 30's (5 matches per week at least), what happens is these videos weren't about individual and complete games as is evident, but was a costum at that time to prepare broad film versions of each date were shown in cinemas. Not mate, the most of the old material of the BFI is about English league. To the Spanish material are many independent collectors. From FootballSquads is the Spanish user Juanjo, who is in my Facebook as contact. I believe around 30 minutes by round. It says more than that, as I mentioned in my post, how immediately assembled a legendary defensive trio (just he arrived, which includes their first semester). The fact that they mention him as one of the best defenders in the world referring to that period of time tells you his status to that year and, coincidentally, that same year is part of the unless defeated defense in Spain (even counting only that last semester of 1931) and is often highlighted by chroniclers. The sucessful of Real Madrid since the 1931/32 season is primarily regarded by the quality of Zamora and Quincoces, being Ciriaco a great complement. No special mentions about the other members even in that semester like Vidal, Esparza, Lope Peña, Leoncito, Regueiro, Bestit, Triana, Eugenio, Olivares, Gurruchaga... Considering this, if you don't believe is evidence of level that type of considerations and perhaps you didn't watch much of the available audiovisual material at that time, I'm pretty curious how you built your Top 100's series, considering there is many players from before the 30's. Actually, as I'm right now building my Top 50's series, I believe is much more subjective to compare players from different times than compare year by year each one between his contemporaries, easier.
Yes, but evidently not the same time for each match, the most important were longest and weren't as the highlights in nowadays.
You are talking about this sort of footage? http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/video/2010/may/15/british-pathe-archive-fa-cup And from this you can work out who the best player in his position in the world is? If so, then you are far more percetive than I am. As I've said before this sort of thing is nice to learn more about the style of play of people, but it is not (for me at least) a good way of judging the ability of the player. That's just something that people say. "He immediately formed a great partnership" is just a convenient thing to say about somebody, it doesn't mean he actually was brilliant in his first year, but the fact he won a title combined with his overall fame would lead people to say that. What's more is that his status is lifted by the fact that he did well for Real Madrid, when in reality Madrid were a nothing team at the time. He is remembered particularly fondly because he was a part of the first two titles that Madrid ever won, as such he gets recalled as one of the best defenders the club ever had which in turn makes him one of the best ever for a club that went on to huge success. I rely on written evidence, but I can only use that to get a general impression of a player. From what I've read I can conclude that Quincoces was a very good player across his career. Making the statement that he was the best defender in the world in 1931 is a far more concrete statement which I don't think there is evidence to support.
Not really mate, rather it seems a worse summary by the short expensive time of the game itself, although the sequences are similar to the very early 30's. It's evident with even the improvements in the videos then the images couldn't be ideal, but there we can contrast those with the written information, it's not necessary to be exaggeratedly perceptive and by sure it's not only a complete guess. Sorry the delay mate, I'm going to try to finish to respond you in these days.