Spain 2008-?: Where do they rank amongst the greats?

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by KyleP, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. leonidas

    leonidas Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    May 25, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    that's really more an issue with the era than anything else, where defensive tactics weren't nearly as refined as they were today. i mean, heck even using this type of logic, one could say that Brazil's 2002 team is slightly better than the 70 team. and we all know that's simply not true, even with 2 phenomenal goal scorers up front. :D
     
  2. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Watch the Dutch games in 1974 and tell me that the atmosphere was not totally in favor of the Dutch. It couldn't have been better for them in the first six games. Absolute home atmosphere for them. The stadiums were packed with Dutch fans, it was an orange ocean in each stadium.
     
  3. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich

    Because Germany 1974 to 1978 was not remotely the same team as from 1970 to 1974.

    In 1974 the following players quit international duties: Gerd Müller, Wolfgang Overath, Jürgen Grabowski and Paul Breitner (returned shortly in 1975 but wouldn't come back until 1981). Günter Netzer was also past his prime.

    That would be somewhat akin to Holland playing without Johan Cruyff, Johan Neeskens, Wim van Hanegem and Rob Rensenbrink from 1974 to 1978.
     
  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I have no idea how your theory that Germany was carried by home court advantage makes even remotely sense considering they won the Euro in 72 and lost out on penalty kicks in 76. Plus you got Bayern München winning the European Cup from 1974 - 1976.
     
  5. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    How is Felix being an awful goalkeeper an issue with era? Nearly half the goals Brazil received were entirely his fault. :D
     
  6. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Because I'm talking about the 1974 team. It's not like Germany won the final 4-nil. The match was so close it is reasonable to suggest that home field might have made the difference. Especially with overwhelming evidence to suggest that home field helps immensely in any WC finals.

    I used the 1974-1978 period to support the idea that Holland had a great team in 1974 (that it wasn't a one tournament fluke). Just like you used 1970-74 to support that Germany had a great 1974 team.
     
  7. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I've read many articles/books suggesting that had West Germany v Poland been played on a dry pitch Poland would've advanced to the final. We'll never know, of course.
     
  8. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Where did I claim the opposite?
    We are talking about the Top 5 teams of all time. Fierce competition and Holland falls just short in my opinion.

    After revising my list I would put them 6th after Brazil 58/62, Hungary 54, Brazil 70, Spain 08/10 and Germany 72/74 without order.
     
  9. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich

    Actually Germany scored three goals in the 1974 final but Gerd Müller's third goal early in the second half inexplicably was not given by the referee. In the 83rd minute Germany could even have scored a fourth goal if a blatant foul in the penalty box on Bernd Hölzenbein had been called. It was the most clear-cut penalty imaginable. But the English ref wasn't in the right mood, having already given two penalties in the first half.

    Here's Müller's second goal:

    [ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg424IWrOfs[/ame]
     
  10. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I wasn't around back in '74 and my impression before seeing the final always was that Holland got robbed and outplayed Germany - based on various comments and people's opinion.

    Watching the game a few years later SHOCKED - !totally! shocked me.
    This was actually one of the most clear-cut WC finals ever. The one goal difference on the scoreboard doesn't reflect the game at all.

    It leads me to think whether most people who are talking about the 1974 World Cup really saw the match ...
     
  11. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    You are aware that a draw would have been enough for Germany to advance?

    Poland shouldn't be in the position to complain considering that the penalty against Yugoslavia was freakin ridiculous.
     
  12. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    (I think) hoeness also missed a penalty against poland, so it could have been 2-0.
     
  13. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany

    They haven't gotten round to it but post on it anyway............. ;)
     
  14. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    You're right.

    Balanced game overall, both keepers made some good saves.
     
  15. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    As others have mentioned the rules have changed. Spain's style of pressing would not be as effective without the rule disallowing passes to the goalie.

    Comparing the players is also difficult, particularly in regards to Spain which in many ways is a throwback team. On the one hand, the Spanish players are excellent two way players all of them able to defend, tackle and attack well. The Brazilian team might suffer in comparison there since their forwards were not expected to press all that much (then who would with the backpass still in place). On the other hand, the current Spanish team is so effective because they are the only team in the world that is based on possession. Yet how good is their technique really in comparison to a Brazil when technique reigned supreme? Very much apples and oranges here.
     
  16. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Of course I'm aware. And I'm assuming the sources I've read were aware of it too. So I guess these sources are suggesting that Poland would've defeated West Germany on a dry pitch.

    I never suggested that Poland ever complained about the circumstances. It was more the neutral observers who wanted to see the appetizing matchup played in better conditions.

    Doesn't necessarily mean that would've been the case had the pitch not been waterlogged.
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Brazil did not really mean to play counter, but it looked like they did have to withdraw back sometimes in game, there were2 reasons
    1- They paid a bit too much respect for the WC holder team
    2- Brazil squad 70 were playing inside Brazil and not familiar with such a fast pace and highballs / croosing scheme of England team (which was a good team BTW)

    But finally they did find the way unlock and scored some good goals - greatest moment of the game was Bank made a "historical save against Pele's header" - PRICELESS ....
     
  18. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich

    On what grounds is this claim based?

    Poland and Germany met in a 1971 Euro qualifier and Germany won convincingly in Poland by 3-1. The return leg in Germany was played under similar conditions as the 1974 World Cup game, pouring rain and a soaked pitch. It ended 0-0. Hence it actually seems more likely that Germany would have won on a dry pitch if the two 1971 games are used as a measure.

    So I wonder how people come to suggest that Poland would have won in 1974 if the pitch had been dry.

    Highlights

    [ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFkXQ58Y_K4[/ame]

    [ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YBY-GgvO0Y[/ame]
     
  19. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I may be biased but they are not better than Italy 82. Why? Rossi scored goals in '82 and Torres in the World Cup last year looked like a man who couldn't score in a brothel! Everyone praises Spain for their attacking play and some idiots label Italy 82 as defensive but Spain 2010 had more 1-0 wins than Italy 82 and Italy 82 had harder opposition. If Rossi faced who Spain had, he would have beat Just Fontaine's record!

    Back to topic, this Spain side will go down as one of the greatest but the amount of 1-0 wins in 2010 should count against them. More pragmatic teams like Italy 70, West Germany 82, Argentina 86, Italy 94 and Brazil 94 would outscore the Spain 2010 team.
     
  20. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Based on how well Poland looked in their five victories leading up to the encounter in Frankfurt.

    1971?!
    It can be argued that the Poland that eliminated England in 1973 and the Poland that played in WM'74 were two different propositions.
    And even you would probably concede that the BRD of 1972 was a better side than the BRD of 1974.
    Why should their '71 meeting even enter into the discussion?
     
  21. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    True. If anything it makes more sense to look at 1975 when Poland tied Holland in Euro qualifying and finished ahead of Italy.
     
  22. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    Which doesn't mean anything.

    Imagine the final vs. Holland had been played in the same conditions as the Poland game. If Germany had won that game vs. Holland, people would argue exactly the same way: "If it had been regular conditions Holland surely would have won".

    It is not a good idea to argue about the outcome of a game based on the previous results of one of the two teams.

    Germany was "on fire" too at the time the Poland game was staged. They had beaten Yugoslavia 2-0 (a very fine technical side with players such as Dzajic, Katalinski, Acimovic, Oblak) and they had beaten a resilient Swedish side 4-2 in a superb game (also with showering rain).

    Remember it was the same Sweden which managed to hold Holland to a goalless draw earlier.

    It is stretching it a bit to assume Poland would have beaten Germay "under regular conditions".
     
  23. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    They lost the away game in Holland 0-3. I do not see how this hints at Poland winning away in Germany a year earlier.
     
  24. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Why not? If Poland's performances the previous two-and-a-half weeks meant nothing then why should Sweden's goalless draw with Holland be taken into account? And you countered that West Germany was also "on fire" going into the game, so recent form appears to be something you're willing to put forth in a discussion as well.
    I don't think it's a stretch to suggest Poland (and FRG) would've performed better on a dry pitch. And who knows, perhaps a change in weather would've made a difference in the result. But as I've already mentioned, we'll never know.
     
  25. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    It amazes me that it took 8 posts before someone finally ranked a team that: (a) won all 7 games, and did not need an overtime to win any of the single elimination matches and (b) scored 18 goals and gave up 4 - a +14 differential that might be the highest of all time. And, the team included all-time greats Ronaldo (leading goal scorer in World Cup history), Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo (anyone who underestimates him only needed to see how sullen the Brazil 2006 attack was without him) and Ronaldinho (experiencing a flash of brilliance). I'd put them higher than 10. I'd put them near the top.
     

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