Read my post properly. Maybe your understanding of English isn't good enough. I didn't say that all of those names were in great form. I'm saying that there were many stars and yet they didn't play well. At least schweppe understood. You should give Matthaeus more credit. He became a more offensive player once he moved to Inter. lanman is right. Brazil had Careca, Alemao and Romario. Romario wasn't 100 per cent fit. Holland had R Koeman, Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard. None of them were in great form. Uruguay had Francescoli, Ruben Sosa, Carlos Aguilera and Ruben Paz. Did any of them play a starring role? Italy played Vialli who had a big name and he flopped. Romania had Hagi and other players who starred at USA 94 but they didn't do much at Italia 90. Only Caniggia sprung to life at Italia 90. Goycoechea was the surprise star. Maradona, Burruchaga and most of the other players from Mexico 86 weren't any good. Aside from Michel, who played well for Spain? Salinas? Butregueno? Bakero? Scotland had Ally McCoist, Mo Johnston and Paul McStay. They didn't do much. John Barnes was a big name in England yet it was David Platt and Paul Gascoigne who emerged as stars.
WC Italy 1990 Top-Ten NTs around 1990 These are the best ELO coefficients for NTs between 1989-91: W.GERMANY = 2051 NETHERLANDS = 2020 ITALY = 1999 BRASIL = 1995 ENGLAND = 1966 SOVIET UNION = 1966 ARGENTINA = 1949 YUGOSLAVIA = 1941 SPAIN = 1937 ROMANIA = 1911 PS: I pick Romania (20 points lower) instead Sweden for Top-10 Closer level: with at least 100 points lower. Sweden, France, Mexico, Denmark, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Uruguay, Ireland, Colombia, Paraguay.
WC Italy 1990 Top-4 WEST GERMANY World class: Matthäus, Hassler International class: Köpke, Buchwald, Kohler, Brehme, A.Möller, Völler, Klinsmann Formation: ---------------------- Köpke Berthold ----- Buchwald ----- Kohler ----- Brehme --------- Matthäus ----- O.Thon ----- Hassler -------------------- A.Möller ----------- Völler ------- Klinsmann Subs: Immel; Reuter, Helmer; Eilts; U.Rahn; Kuntz, Riedle NETHERLANDS World class: R.Koeman, Rijkaard, Gullit, van Basten International class: van Breukelen, Blind, Winter, Wouters, Kieft Formation: --------------- van Breukelen van Aerle ----- Blind ----- R.Koeman ----- Winter -------- Wouters ----- Rijkaard ----- Gullit -------------------- Vanenburg -------- van Basten ------- Kieft Subs: Menzo; Silooy, Valckx; Jonk; Rob Witschge; van't Schip, Bosman ITALY World class: Baresi, Maldini, R.Baggio International class: Zenga, Bergomi, Costacurta, Ferrara, Donadoni, Zola, Vialli Formation: ---------------------- Zenga Bergomi ----- Costacurta ----- Baresi ----- Maldini ------------ Berti ----- de Napoli ----- Donadoni ------------------- Zola -------------- R.Baggio ------------------------ Vialli Subs: Galli; Ferrara, de Agostini; di Livio, Giannini; Mancini, Schillachi BRAZIL World class: Branco, Careca, Bebeto, Romario International class: Jorginho, Julio Cesar, Aldair, Ricardo Rocha, Dunga, Alemao, Valdo, Rai Formation: ----------------------- Carlos Jorginho ----- Julio Cesar ----- R.Rocha ----- Branco ----------- Dunga -------- Alemao ----- Valdo-------------------------- Rai ---------- Bebeto ------- Romario Subs: Gilmar; Josimar, Aldair; C.Sampaio; Silas; Renato Gaucho, Careca .
WC Italy 1990 Others NTs generations around 1990 ENGLAND: Seaman, Adams, Walker, Pearce, Platt, Waddle, Gascoigne, Lineker, Barnes SOVIET UNION: Dasaev, O.Kuznetsov, Rats, Aleinikov, Litovchenko, Zavarov, Mikhailichenko, Dobrovolski, Korneev, Protasov ARGENTINA: Pumpido, Goycochea, Ruggeri, Sensini, Batista, Burruchaga, Maradona, Caniggia, Beto Acosta YUGOSLAVIA: Djukic, Jarni, Katanec, Stojkovic, Boban, Savicevic, Pancev SPAIN: Buyo, Zubizarreta, Sanchis, Hierro, Bakero, Michel, Martin Vazquez, Butragueño ROMANIA: Lung, Petrescu, Belodedici, G.Popescu, Lupescu, Mateut, Hagi, Lacatus .
Re: WC Italy 1990 You should take Di Livio out. He wasn't even a Serie A player at the time. I'm suprised that Galli is in the team. He was 32 years old at the time. You should have put in Pagliuca.
Re: WC Italy 1990 I guess you completely missed on watching the actual WC...Brazil sucked every match except against Sweden, who were the biggest flop of the Cup anyways. There is no way they should be classified ast top 4 by any criteria. To me it's Italy, Netherlands, Argentina and Germany. Also, Bergomi and Giannini were world class players for Italy circa those times.
Re: WC Italy 1990 You're right dor, Di Livio doesn't belong to WC'90 generation, since he had 20 years old by that time. My mistake I replaced him on the bench for a DM: Conte or Marocchi. Pagliuca would be mentioned for the next 2 generations, since he was GK and born in 1966.
Re: WC Italy 1990 Between Brazil & Argentina there is 50 points of difference. So is a closer one. On paper, Brazil had a better generation of players by that time, IMO. Argentina's peak in that period was Copa America's victory in 1991, since they failed on Copa America 1989 and its record at WC was 2-3-2 (penalties definition counts like a draw) About Brazil, since its Copa America's victory in 1989, they only lossed one game, until reached its highest ELO in this period after WC 1st round. That's the explanations i can support for theirs ELO, but is very closer. About the italians, Giannini certainly would be International class rated. But, Bergomi in the same level of Baresi, Baggio & Maldini. I have my doubts about it.
Re: WC Italy 1990 Brazil got all three wins in the group stage because they played crap teams, they would have lost to Cameroon had they been in Argentina's group. And don't forget they lost to Argentina, yet you are still putting behind them. Italy had, in my opinion, its greatest generation of players during this time, with a core group of legends in Baggio, Maldini, Baresi, Bergomi, Giannini and Donadoni supplemented with some superb players in Ancelotti, Zenga, De Napoli, Vialli, Mancini, Vierchowod, Carnevale, Zola, Serena, Benarrivo, Tasotti, Costacurta, Schillachi and Evani. They were extremely unlucky not to win anything: In Euro 88, they reached the semis but were upset by the USSR, and of courre in WC 90 at home, destiny would have them go to Napoli to the temple of the god Maradona and it was over for them. In 94 they reached the final and lost out in penalties to Brazil. Penalties was their undoing, had they won the shootouts versus Argentina and Brazil, they could have claimed two WC championships (Italy always beats Germany, more so at home).
Re: WC Italy 1990 Thanks mate! I also wasn't sure about put de Napoli & Berti in the 1st line of midfield. Since i think that they were more like a box-to-box mid. Same role of Tardelli.
Re: WC Italy 1990 They were either box-to-box midfielders or wide midfielders. De Napoli was usually a right midfielder when he played for the Azzurri, especially under Vicini.
Wc usa 1994 Top-Ten NTs around 1994 These are the better ELO coefficients for NTs between 1993-95: BRASIL = 2085 ITALY = 1995 GERMANY = 1994 ARGENTINA = 1983 NETHERLANDS = 1962 SPAIN = 1956 SWEDEN = 1947 DENMARK = 1929 FRANCE = 1919 COLOMBIA = 1911 Closer level: with at least 100 points lower. England, Russia, Serbia, Croatia, Czech Rep., Switzerland, Romania, Mexico, Bulgaria
Wc usa 1994 Top-4 BRAZIL World class: Cafu, Rivaldo, Bebeto, Romario International class: Taffarel, Aldair, Leonardo, Mauro Silva, Rai, Edmundo Formation: ----------------- Taffarel Cafu ----- R.Gomes ----- Aldair ----- Leonardo ------- Mauro Silva -------- Mazinho ----- Rai ------------------------ Rivaldo --------- Bebeto ------- Romario Subs: Zetti; Ze Maria, Marcio Santos; C.Sampaio; Silas; Edmundo, Elber ITALY World class: Maldini, R.Baggio International class: Zenga, Costacurta, Ferrara, Albertini, Zola, Signori Formation: ---------------------- Zenga Benarrivo ----- Costacurta ----- Ferrara ----- Maldini ------------ Albertini ----- D.Baggio ----- R.Baggio -------------------- Zola ----------- Mancini -------- Signori Subs: Pagliuca; di Matteo, Pessotto; di Livio, Berti; Casiraghi, Schillachi ARGENTINA World class: Redondo, Batistuta International class: Goycochea, Sensini, Cáceres, Simeone, Caniggia Formation: --------------- Goycochea Vivas ----- Sensini ----- F.Cáceres ----- Chamot -------- Simeone ---------- Redondo ----- Latorre -------------------- L.Rodriguez ---------- Caniggia ------- Batistuta Subs: Islas; F.Basualdo, S.Vazquez; Franco; Gorosito; Balbo, Beto Acosta GERMANY World class: Sammer, Hassler International class: Illgner, Köpke, Kohler, Effenberg, A.Möller, Scholl, Bierhoff, Klinsmann Formation: ------------------ Illgner Reuter ----- Kohler ----- Helmer ----- Ziege --------- Effenberg ------- Sammer ----- Hassler -------------------- A.Möller ---------- Bierhoff ------- Klinsmann Subs: Köpke; Strunz, Linke; O.Thon; Scholl; Kirsten, Riedle .
Wc usa 1994 Others NTs generations circa 1994 HOLLAND: Winter, F.de Boer, Vanenburg, Cocu, Witschge, Bergkamp, van Basten SPAIN: Zubizarreta, Sanchis, Abelardo, Sergi, Guardiola, Hierro, Luis Enrique, Fran, Amavisca SWEDEN: P.Andersson, Thern, Limpar, H.Larsson, Brolin, Dahlin, K.Andersson DENMARK: Schmeichel, Helveg, Nielsen, M.Laudrup, B.Laudrup FRANCE: Angloma, Desailly, Blanc, Lizarazu, Deschamps, Djorkaeff, Cantona, Ginola COLOMBIA: Higuita, J.Bermudez, L.Alvarez, Rincon, Asprilla, Aristizabal .
Re: Wc usa 1994 A few comments below. Brazil: Mauro Silva, Leonardo and Jorginho were world class. The extremely overrated Cafu was a sub during WC94, and he followed it with a mediocre CA 95 and a poor spell in Spain, before finally lifting his level during the 97-98 season. Italy: Albertini, Bergomi and Ferrara were world class, and Schillachi was in Serie B by this time. Argentina: Caniggia was world class, in fact much better than Batistuta for the NT. Also Simeone was world class, and would only improve his level in the years to come. Germany: Klinsmann was world class, five goals in WC94 and four in Euro96 should be enough to confirm that. So was Effenberg, who was actually better than Sammer for the NT, I think banning him was a huge mistake by the German Federation and their NT paid for it in both WCs 94 and 98.
Re: WC USA 1994 Thanks for your comments, mate: About Giuseppe Bergomi, he's only picked as part of the 86' & 90' generations, because the rule of #1 post https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1381429 For the category world-class, i tried to mean, a top-100 legendary player material. From the names you listed: Albertini, Caniggia, Simeone, Klinsmann & Effenberg could make room for that status, IMO. BTW, i considered for the starters & subs formations, the status players in an overall career, not for their actual level in that year.
Re: WC USA 1994 Ok, understood, so Cafu should then be labeled world class. However, I would still place Jorginho as world class, and possibly Leonardo and Mauro Silva. Ferrrara also had an amazing career, somehow didn't much feature as a starter for the Azzurri, but lesser right-backs such as Tasotti and Mussi did.
Re: WC USA 1994 I pick Jorginho for the 86' & 90' generations, but also could be part of 94' generation, since he was 30 years old.
These are the top-10 ELO coefficients between 1907-09: England - 2017 Denmark - 1865 Netherlands - 1862 Argentina - 1835 Boheme - 1764 Scotland - 1744 Belgium - 1733 Uruguay - 1675 Hungary - 1653 South Africa My top-4 circa 1908 would been: England, Denmark, Boheme & Scotland I'd replace Boheme x Argentina, since Slavia Praha was the most dominant continental club at those times. BOHEME: ---------------------- Jenik ------------- Benda ----------– Vesely ----- Kovarovic ---– Kotouc --------– Jetel Baumruk --– Belka –-- Freja --– Kosek --- Macoun Subs: Semansky - Hrabe - Rezek, Vosatka - Maly, Stary, Valasek (Stars = Kosek, Benda, Vesely, Belka, Freja)
a small thing i wnat to say. by holland 1974 you put in worldclass not van hanegem. big big mistake and also simply wrong. van hanegem was by all standards worldclass
I heard that from some dutch friends, so it's fair comment. Sadly i can't edit the post. But, i agree to move van Hanegem to wc players alongside Neeskens, Krol, etc.
yes he truly was. most dutch people above the age of 40 rank him behind cruyff as the best dutch player ever. he was very very complete player. he had very good passing and technique and overview and game intelligence. but also he could head very well and tackle also could be a mean player if nescassery and was not afraid to work hard or to use some vilence when the game required it.
Bohemian (pre-Czechoslovakia) top club in Pre WWI era was Slavia Praha. Also the most succesfull continental side facing British sides and other continental clubs. http://www.rsssf.com/tablesb/brit-ier-tours-prewwii.html