End of collective bargaining/other anti-union measures plus reactions ...

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by purojogo, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Having some experience with the public sector, I think one thing you can guarantee is that this stuff will demoralise and piss people off to such an extent that the taxpayer will suffer a huge loss of value.

    That is never factored in to these 'clever' ideas on restructuring
     
  2. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    I do think there is an awful lot of hubris in the republicans who just won in places like Wisconsin that are purple states at best. After being a major contributor in the ********ing up of America, the republicans were swept out of power nationally and in many states. Of course, the democrats were not handed any real mandate, it was a vote for something different.

    In 2010, the vote was simply out of disgust for the way our government does not seem to be working or frustration with the pace of recovery. However, people like Walker and the guy in Florida seem to think that people really do want them to do the things they are doing. Odd. They risk being voted right back out of office if they don't heed the true wishes of voters.

    Yes, part of the election was debt. I don't think the democrats did a good enough job of: a) demonstrating that the vast majority of debt has nothing to do with policies of the last two years; and b) that a massive correction the other way will be very damaging to a fragile recovery.

    I have said all along that they need to make this simple in their message. There are three big spenders in an economy. Consumers, companies and government. The first two had stopped spending. If we went with austerity measures in 2009 we would have collapsed into depression and deflation. The message should now be that we are recovering but the first two are still not carrying their weight. So, we have to be mindful of government spending but we can't be foolish. The time for real spending reform is during periods of economic strength. We had a real shot to solidify our fundamentals back in 2000 but Gore and Bush were falling all over themselves to give the money away instead.

    So, back to debt. Republicans like Walker could have gotten a lot of what they wanted in the current atmosphere. He could have gotten significant concessions from the state employees and secured more contributions from them for benefits that would have even achieved his "budget" goals. But that wasn't good enough. He believed he has some sort of ideological mandate to crush all things progressive and that belief was foolish to the nth degree. People don't want ideology. The don't want to crush unions. They want pragmatism. They want solutions. Even though republicans played a major role in creating our mess, they had a great opportunity to seize that pragmatic mantel. They have largely failed. Boehner is walking a tight rope and still might be successful, but his own party might not allow that to happen.
     
  3. ratdog

    ratdog Member+

    Mar 22, 2004
    In the doghouse
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is why the tea party wave will ultimately prove disastrous to the Reeps. It's rarely if ever a good idea to put fringe fundamentalist extremists in charge of your destiny. At best they now look hella weak-ass for letting their fringe push them around like school yard bullies. The Dems would have to let the Green Party dictate their agenda to make a similar blunder. I strongly suspect but cannot "prove" that, like Wisconsin voters, a lot of independents outside the wackier areas of the southwest who voted Reep as a knee-jerk against the Dems not being able to put us back to bubbliciousness in two years or who drank the "Death Panel" scare tactic kool-aid are now looking at the extremism going on now and wishing they could undo that last election.

    It also doesn't help that the Reeps that Americans are tired of watching jobs go to a China that is not competing on a level playing field where American have pretty nakedly aligned themselves with economic elites who are afraid to stand up to the Chicoms and are instead building up the Chinese while striking out at American workers by using Chinese and Indian competition as a threat. I think the tide of public relations turned against Walker, for example, when it became obvious that he is the Koch brothers' puppet.

    The best thing that Reeps have going for them is Obama's utter lack of skill in communicating to the people and his subsequent continuing failure to control the narrative. If he ever learned how to do that, the Reeps would be screwed because the economy is getting better and that has nothing to do teabagger policies which, in fact, will act a brake on economic growth while ensuring that any new jobs are crappy McJobs and not those needed to preserve the middle class here.
     
  4. Q*bert Jones III

    Q*bert Jones III The People's Poet

    Feb 12, 2005
    Woodstock, NY
    Club:
    DC United
    In addition to unilaterally ending collective bargaining, handing power (literally and figuratively) to out-of-state right wing billionaires, and generally blazing a trail into a pre-News Deal dystopian hell, Governor Scott Walker wants to kill puppies.

    No, seriously.


     
  5. purojogo

    purojogo Member

    Sep 23, 2001
    US/Peru home
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    well, they had it coming...After all, about half of them are absolute bitches.....
     
  6. purojogo

    purojogo Member

    Sep 23, 2001
    US/Peru home
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Daily Show: Crisis in Dairyland - For Richer and Poorer - Teachers and Wall Street
    When will America's teachers follow the lead of Wall Street and start making some sacrifices for the children?"
    That says it all, doesn't it..... and those pundits make more twists and turns to justify attacking one group...while defending the one bailed out by the taxpayers and protecting them from anything resembling any checks (unless it is the of the $$$ bonus type) or consequence whatsoever for the actions of a few among them..... BUt if the teachers have some people who may not be that efficient at their work, hey TAKE ALL THEIR RIGHTS AWAY!
    Some soulless SOBs on that clip.....
     
  7. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Teachers are easy to pick on. When most people think of teachers, they think of the ones they had in school. And most of us were bored out of our minds in school. Teachers are those annoying people who try to make you do uninteresting work. They tell you what to do all the time. They keep you cooped up indoors learning about the life cycles of fungi, when you'd rather be at the mall chilling with your friends. It's easy to resent teachers.
     
  8. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is it me or is Chris Christie going to emerge the GOP front runner after all this?
     
  9. GiuseppeSignori

    Jun 4, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really? Everyone I know has the utmost respect for the profession of teaching and admiration for the teachers they come in contact with. I think that the resentment amongst the tea party crowd is due almost entirely to the fact that these teachers are unionized and public employees. I'm sure they would have nothing but good things to say about Sister Margaret at Our Lady of Perpetual Guilt who knows how to maintain discipline with the crack of a ruler.
     
  10. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well that and the working 180 days per year, 6 hours per day thing while other professionals with the same level of education routinely put in a full year of 60 hour weeks for similar cash.

    Or that what teachers unions do is effectively considered collusion for any other organization of professionals.
     
  11. marek

    marek Member+

    Lechia Gdańsk
    Jun 27, 2000
    Club:
    OSP Lechia Gdansk
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    this always happens... its not the teachers its the teachers unions that are the topic of conversation here, what you just did is a typical Dem trick
     
  12. GiuseppeSignori

    Jun 4, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Excepting, of course, douchebags on the internet.

    :D
     
  13. Shabs

    Shabs Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    NYC
    When do you think they make their lesson plans? Make and grade tests? Parent/Teacher conferences? School functions? Education Seminars?
     
  14. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because nobody else works outside of work, right?
     
  15. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Listen bro, I'm all for good teachers. Trouble is that the current system rewards mediocrity and time spent and does not encourage greatness and ingenuity. It also excludes nontraditional instructors that are experts. That's wrong.

    I have a hard time with any professionals collective bargaining. Labor and tradesmen, fine. In fact there should be more of you unionized. In fact, I think teacher unionization hurts the individual teacher more than it helps. They aren't able to negotiate outside the box when times get tough or negotiate bonuses like other professionals can. And if other professionals negotiated the way teachers do, people would lose their mind over price fixing.

    Finally, teaching is a job. It's not a special job for special people like we have had forced down our throats. It deserves to be treated with the same respect as other professional avenues. So as soon as teachers start sticking up for architects that end up taking below minimum wage on projects then maybe we are talking. The truth is that you don't work harder, do more or create better than anyone else. Get off the high horse.
     
  16. Shabs

    Shabs Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    NYC
    What professionals work 60 hrs a week, PLUS take work home, and make a comparable salary to teachers?
     
  17. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Architects and interior designers.
     
  18. Shabs

    Shabs Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    NYC
    I know about 15 architects personally, from different walks of life, working for both private companies and for the NYC govt. I lived with one, my ex gf, for 6 years. None of them bring work home anywhere near regularly. And none of them work 12 hour days regularly, either.
     
  19. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you know a bunch of hacks and failures.
     
  20. purojogo

    purojogo Member

    Sep 23, 2001
    US/Peru home
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Freedom. Information. Scott Walker. Which one of these is not like the other?

    Over the past month or so, Governor Walker has been spinning a narrative in which he’s been receiving “overwhelming” support for his budget-slashing measures. He has frequently cited receiving emails from “a single mother” or “a small-business owner” or “a laid off autoworker from Janesville.” As he continues to find ways to get on to TV to make his case, he keeps relying on this “overwhelming” support.

    In an attempt to find out what level of support he really has received, two local media outlets filed Freedom of Information Act requests, seeking the emails that Walker has received over this period of time. They want to see exactly who is supporting him and what they are saying.

    Apparently, the law not being on his side, Walker decided to ignore the requests. Bill Lueders of the Isthmus noted that he had not received a formal response to his request. AP reporter Todd Richmond received an email from the governor’s lawyer, noting his request would cost more than $31,250 and that amount of money had to be paid in advance.
    Or, he could just come on down and camp out at the Capitol and read until his heart was content.

    The men filed a suit in Dane County on Friday, as their requests weren’t being taken seriously.

    The Freedom of Information Act for the state of Wisconsin is listed here. Note that it says that we’re supposed to have as much openness as possible. Also note that fees can be waived “if the material requested is of public interest.” Governor might be making shit up? Yeah, seems like this request fits the bill

    The law also dictates that a formal response is required and best practices in this state indicate that it’s supposed to come within 48 hours of receiving the request. A “hey dude” email a week later doesn’t cut it.





    I think it is starting to make sense why Wisconsin is in such financial straits or at leat realize how he can claim such troubles without problems....Dude does not know how to save money... HOw easy would it be to send him a memory stick or something? 31K, give me a break! 7.5 million for cleanup costs? GTFO!


    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-7-2011/crisis-in-dairyland---tape-residue
     
  21. tomwilhelm

    tomwilhelm Member+

    Dec 14, 2005
    Boston, MA, USA
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This isn't a productive line of conversation at all.
     
  22. steve-o

    steve-o New Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    I already went there. I was told I didn't know what the definition of 'collude' was. I'm interested to see what kind of response you get for this.
     
  23. steve-o

    steve-o New Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    And you bitching and moaning about what you perceive as the world's ills on an internet forum is?
     
  24. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    To start with, it has nothing to do with the title "professional" as Matt suggests. Collective bargaining is all about power or lack of power. Several years ago, I did some research on a movement within the AMA to organize residents. I know that there were powerful forces trying to scuttle this and probably did since I haven't read much about it lately. They were not organizing for money. They felt the need to collectively bargain on issues like the incredibly long hours residents work and then issues as focused as parking lot security when residents go to their cars in the middle of the night.

    They simply lacked the chops of doctors and recognized the need to have a collective voice on certain issues.

    It seems to me that teachers most certainly have issues. I'm not going to presume to know enough to lecture them on whether they should or shouldn't organize. I'm trying to imagine a free agent system, and I can see some real issues. What would have happened in the last downturn when budgets were crushed? My guess is that the very good teachers who negotiated higher salaries would have been the first to go.

    Instead, it makes sense to me that a governor can go to a union and say, "you collectively need to concede some things to make the books balance." That could have and still can happen in Wisconsin. Without a union, it would be chaos, no?

    Interestingly, I just heard a labor lawyer on sports radio yesterday talking about decertification of the NFLPA and how athletes might be much better off without unions, period. Without a collective bargaining agreement, things like the draft and salary caps and franchise tags and the rest would likely be illegal. They exist only because the players are in a union and agreed to them. They might not need a union but no one has made a convincing argument that teachers do not.
     

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