Copa Libertadores 2011 (R)

Thanks man it helped alot so the 15th of Feb they play Nacional at the Azteca and then a week later the play Argentino's Juniors in Buenos Aires should be some good games their. I predict Vouso will score in both those games he has been having some great games with America.

 

It depends on which team you speak of. Internacional did achieve success with Argentines, but its 2006 Libertadores title win came without any Argentines. Argentine players helped Inter w/ the Copa Sul-Americana and the 2010 Libertadores, but as you said, the players who returned were still relatively young and in their prime.

Fluminense's only "success" with an Argentine (Dario Conca) was the 2010 Brasileirao, which ends in December of every year - and Conca is not a "returning" Argentine. He went into my country's league straight from yours, without ever playing in UEFA.

Maxi Lopez was a stalwart for Gremio in 2009, but Gremio won no titles in 2009.

 

Just a correction, Conca came from Universidad Catolica.
About returning Brazilians:
- Romario came home at his peak.
- Elano just returned and is doing really well.

 

True to a degree, Colorado for example has developed plenty of talent in the past couple of years and many of them are people that didn't even finished a Brasileirao. (Alexandre Pato, Luis Adriano, Giuliano etc) Colorado has a solid team with an old defense (Indio and Bolivar) and the likes of Tinga, Kleber, Alecsandro etc are old players that could very well be playing overseas. Like the Argies Guinazu and D'alessandro also could be in any european team. I think that the main difference today is that some Brasilian clubs can afford players that the Argentina league can't. Boca is trying to get GUinazu but they don't have that kind of money, River would die to get D'alessandro out of Inter but they don't have that kind of money either. Colorado has well over 100 thousand socios and makes a lot of money and is very well organized. I would say that in that department we are a step up from Argentine and Brasilian teams. Most of them anyways.

 

True, thanks for this. Romario did come back and contribute at a high level. He played against Barcelona for Brazil in 1999 and the very next day he was on the pitch for Flamengo. And Elano is doing great - man, how unfortunate an Ivorian broke his leg last year. With him vs. Holland... man.

 

Well, it's no wonder that yours and my NTs are perennially the two most competitive in CONMEBOL. The vast majority of regulars in our NTs may play in Europe - and precisely because they're the best our countries produce.

Your NT's recent struggles in WCQ notwithstanding, your NT is a direct consequence of the products created by the clubs in the Argentine league. The exact same thing is wholly true of Brazil's NT. All those players were once players in the Brazilian league.

I dare say that an all-star starting XI combining the best players from both Brazil's and Argentina's leagues would be very competitive in any NT tournament - Copa America, the European Championship, and the World Cup.

 

Colorado,

Your team and Grêmio have historically not hesitated to tap players from across the Rio da Prata. Grêmio had De Leon, an Uruguayan, in 1983. Your team had no Argentines in 2006, but a few in 2010 and likewise this season. Grêmio had Saja and Schiavi in 2007.

Compare this to the other recent Brazilian teams who made it to the final of the Libertadores and/or who won it.

SPFC 1992: no Uruguayans or Argentines (SPFC won it all)
SPFC 1993: no Uruguayans or Argentines (SPFC won it all)
SPFC 1994: no Uruguayans or Argentines
Grêmio 1995: Arce, from Paraguay (Grêmio won it all)
Cruzeiro 1997: no Uruguayans or Argentines (Cruzeiro won it all)
Vasco 1998: no Uruguayans or Argentines (Vasco won it all)
Palmeiras 1999: no Uruguayans or Argentines (Arce, from Paraguay; Palmeiras won it all)
Palmeiras 2000: no Uruguayans or Argentines (Asprilla, from Colombia)
São Caetano 2002: none
Santos 2003: none
SPFC 2005: Lugano, Uruguayan (SPFC won it all)
Atlético Paranaense 2005: none
SPFC 2006: Lugano, Uruguayan
Fluminense 2008: Conca
Cruzeiro 2009: none

So my question is - is this a coincidence, or do Internacional and Grêmio look to hire players from Argentina and/or Uruguay because of cultural similarities, regional proximity, etc? Or are these factors irrelevant, and is it more a question of pragmatism (getting the best possible talent irrespective of where the players are from)?

I mean, as you can see, SPFC won the Libertadores and the Club World Cup in 2005 with one non-Brazilian - Diego Lugano, who was defending Uruguay as recently as the 2010 World Cup. My own team doesn't hesitate to hire non-Brazilians.

But w/ the Rio Grande do Sul teams - is it strictly a soccer thing or is there more to it?

 

People from Rio Grande do Sul love to suck up to Argentina. They copy a lot of stuff from your football fans and claim as their invention.

There is a joke in Brazil that people from Argentina think they are europeans.
People from Rio Grande do Sul think they are argentines (when it comes to football).

 

I wouldn't go as far as to say that RS folks love to suck up to Argentina - granted, I'm not from there, but what I have seen is that a lot of RS folks feel the rivalry against them just as much as people from RJ or SP do.

For example (I'm not saying this to provoke anybody, but to make a point).... when Argentina was eliminated in the first round in 2002, Porto Alegre, the capital of Rio Grande do Sul, witnessed a huge and prolonged, and spontaneous, fireworks show. This also happened in towns near the border with Argentina. Do you think they would have done this if they enjoyed kissing Argentina's ass?

What I have heard is that Grêmio was historically nicknamed as "o time mais argentino do Brasil," and while this was used derogatorily, Grêmio fans themselves often prided themselves in this. Even if they believe in an affinity between their style of soccer and Argentina's, it wouldn't necessarily qualify as "sucking up."

 

No wonder Ronaldinho said his hero growing up was Maradona.

 

Well, not all people from Rio Grande do Sul suck up to Argentina, but a lot of them do. Many more than in other brazilian states. Their "organizadas/hinchas/firms" copy so much from Argentina that someday they'll start singing in spanish.

 

I think that quality is the most important thing here. The first Idol I had was Don Elias Figueroa, a Chilean defender that was the best of his kind for most of the 70's.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn5AQvgZZWk"]YouTube - Gol Figueroa - Brasileiro 75 - final Inter x Cruzeiro[/ame]

Than we had Aguirregarray in the early 80's, Goycochea was the goalie for Colorado as well. Ruben Paz was an idol on his time and one of the best #10 I've seen. Gamarra came to Brasil playing for Colorado for a few seasons before Flamengo. So there's plenty of examples. They will be more at home here for sure. THey can drink their mate, the cities aren't too different, weather, people etc So i see why the adjustment would be easy. We have a little more argies than usual, but Uruguay, CHile and PAraguay also provides talent and quality so either way is fine.

 

As for us sucking up to anybody all I can say is that we are the only fanbase in Brasil who not only sings our states anthem before the matches but we also have about 90% Rio Grande do Sul flags to 10% Brasilian flags in the stadium. At the end, we are more ourselves than Brasilian, but in close observation we got along better with Argentineans and Uruguayans than most Brasilians. That's me speaking for myself. I'd rather be in Buenos Aires and Montivideo all day everyday than Sao Paulo. Nothing against anybody. Is just more what I'm used to.

 

I'm pretty sure Internacional had Guinazu playing for them in 2006, so they did have an Argentine.

 

Actually, Guinazu didn't play for them in 2006. I double checked and I was wrong.

 

2006 we had Renteria during the Libertadores and Vargas (was playing for Boca) the last only for CWC. Both Colombians. And pretty good players.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epw-LkinnPQ"]YouTube - Inter 2 x 1 Nacional Libertadores 2006 (RENTERIA) Golaço[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR6QN9LTO28"]YouTube - Libertadores 2006 - Inter x LDU - 2 x 0 (Rentería)[/ame]

 

Just for clarification. Renteria wasn't a starter. Was always a jogador de segundo tempo but he sure could deliver. The best about him is that he would score, put a hat on his head, a pipe in his mouth and go to the crowd jumping in one foot. Representing the saci, a symbol in Brasilian folclore and the symbol of Colorado.

 

Weird things are weird. Niell is possibly the shortest of all the players on the 20 clubs of the first division, yet no matter what he always scores from headers, amazing. Against Fluminense not only once but twice!

 

Yea, he was on loan to DC United for half a season, didnt do well cause of the physicality. Surprised how well he has played everywhere else since, at Gimnasia, in Ecuador, and now back in argentina with the team who owns his pass, Argentinos Juniors.

 

Vieron el golazo del mago Ramírez?

Bien el Vélez en la segunda mitad.

 

Como dirían en México, "ganaron las wilas!"