The Screwjob in Berkeley

Discussion in 'College & Amateur Soccer' started by USAClash, Nov 24, 2010.

  1. USAClash

    USAClash Member

    Feb 9, 1999
    http://www.ncaa.com/blog/mens-soccer/2010/11/a-shameful-display.html

    There's been a lot of talk on the controversy and aftermath of the Cal/UCSB 2nd round match from last weekend in the Cal and UCSB threads. It doesn't appear to be going away so I thought I'd add a new thread to consolidate.

    Now, the official NCAA website's own soccer blogger is calling for the match to be replayed.
     
  2. JoeSoccerFan

    JoeSoccerFan Member+

    Aug 11, 2000
    2 threads aren't enough?

    Of course, it won't be re-played.
     
  3. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Well, UCSB is the first team in the history of college soccer - nee, the history of soccer AND college sports - to ever be on the bad end of officiating, so it's, of course, worthy of all these threads.
     
  4. CodyJarrett

    CodyJarrett Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Bloomington, IN
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I know. It's such a hot topic that this thread is burning up with activity.

    (Maybe the half dozen or so people who are really concerned about it can exchange email addresses and take the pity party out of the forums.)
     
  5. firestorm225

    firestorm225 Member

    Aug 25, 2006
    San Francisco
    I understand that officiating can be subjective, and that many bad calls happen in all levels of soccer. However, no one has been able to answer what the protocol is for when an ineligible referee is used. Or is the NCAA allowed to break it's own rules?

    The interest in this topic is understandable: At UCSB soccer is the sport. Is there any other Division I school where soccer is the highest drawing sport? Combine that with the College Cup being hosted by UCSB this year, and you can understand the frustration.
     
  6. Gaucho95

    Gaucho95 Member

    Dec 13, 2004
    Oakland, Ca
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Sandon is correct. We are not the only school to be on the bad end of officiating.

    UMASS-Dartmouth go the short end of the officiating stick and got a replay:

    http://www.keeneowls.com/sports/msoc/2010-11/releases/20101104Replay

    SUNY - Cobleskill also got the short end and a replay:


    http://www.keeneowls.com/sports/msoc/2010-11/releases/20101104Replay

    If you follow those links, you will see that the NCAA granted replays in both cases, and these are very recent cases.

    Now, Sandon would have told both those schools to just get on with it, but the NCAA saw it differently.

    Is the NCAA blogger whining when he calls for a replay on our behalf?

    Personally, I do not believe the NCAA will grant a replay as they would be admitting their own error, but I believe they should given that the ref was not even eligible to ref given the NCAA's own rules AND his poor officiating led to a critical error that impacted the match. The second element, IMO, is not even required but merely strengthens the argument. If a replay is granted, I suspect we would find out today with the match being played tomorrow.
     
  7. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is an arbitrary rule that a referee do 6 DI matches THAT year really worth a replay? I really don't think so. You are a talking about a USSF National Grade 3 referee who is clearly qualified to officiate any college match.

    Regardless, replays and protests are given when a referee misapplies a rule (incorrect restarts, illegal substitutions, etc) not on subjective instances (foul or no foul, yellow card or no yellow card).

    Is there video of this match and these 'alleged' errors in subjective judgement by the referee? Even if you disagree, as the blogger did, with what should be yellow and what should be red, these aren't even grounds for a protest, so it's moot.

    Ultimately, are far as this referee being assigned to this match, it is entirely possible multiple other referees that met the 6 match requirement were simply not available and declined the match. Assignors still have to put the most qualified referee on the game they can find, and a National grade 3 certainly is MORE THAN qualified to call this game. Would you rather just flip a coin because they couldn't find a referee that did the 6 match minimum?
     
  8. Gaucho95

    Gaucho95 Member

    Dec 13, 2004
    Oakland, Ca
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Listen, it's an arbitrary rule that the NCAA itself instituted yet it did not follow its own rule. This is not a rule that was imposed on the NCAA by an outside entity... it's their own rule! A referee qualifies or doesn't.

    The NCAA is a big stickler for eligibility rules. In fact, some may argue that ensuring that student athletes are eligible to compete on the playing field is one of the main functions of the NCAA. Look at their website and you will see a very heavy emphasis on eligibility rules as well as requirements. However well qualified Mike Kampmeinert may be to ref in other leagues, he was as eligible as plucking a random person from the street. Speaking of mootness, the fact that he made egregious errors is not relevant to the discussion, it simply prompted many questions regarding the very poor officiating and shined light on the root of the problem. The ref was GROSSLY ineligible and thus it may be reasonably argued that the game itself does not count.

    What if Cal or UCSB had a player that was not eligible... hell, doesn't even come close to eligible? You think the NCAA would ignore it and take no action?

    Any other qualifications the ref may hold, however glowing, may not be considered given the NCAA's own rules. If I may, here are the rules (bold in my emphasis). Notice that no other credentials may be required. The ONLY eligibility requirements based on experience is having officiated in 6 NCAA D1 Men's matches. That's it.

    Officials
    Policies and Selection of Officials. For the Division I men’s soccer championship,
    an official is required to work a minimum of six regular-season Division I men’s soccer
    games in order to be eligible to work any round(s) of the championship.
    For Division I
    men’s games, the referee will not be assigned to a game if it involves an institution he
    or she attended, was or is an employee of, or if any of his or her relatives have any of
    these affiliations.
    A sports committee or games committee may not require membership in any specific
    officials’ association as a prerequisite for selection to officiate in an NCAA meet or
    tournament.
    Officials shall be selected and assigned by the sports committee or games
    committee, which shall ensure that officials adhere to the Association’s policies relating
    to gambling activities and drug and alcohol use. Furthermore, officials must conduct
    themselves in a manner befitting intercollegiate athletics. Failure to do so may result in
    termination of the officiating assignment. Officials for all NCAA post season games shall
    be appointed by the men’s soccer committee in conjunction with the NCAA national
    (and regional) coordinator for officials using a comprehensive list based on input from
    the regional advisory committees, conferences and other officiating organizations.
    Officials for preliminary rounds must be within driving distance of the host site (400
    miles one way). (Note: The committee does have an exception for the referee only for
    quarterfinal games, if warranted.)


    http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/champ_handbooks/soccer/2010/10_1_m_soccer.pdf
     
  9. skipper60601

    skipper60601 Member

    Aug 12, 2005
    Club:
    Hibernian FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the ridiculous behavior of the three UCSB players after the game is the worst part of this. That program needs to take a look at itself and not worry about replays.
     
  10. USAClash

    USAClash Member

    Feb 9, 1999
    There's going to be a record amount of whining and complaining because there's a record amount of support for soccer at UCSB. The controversy is still a front page story in Santa Barbara this Thanksgiving. We're hosting the College Cup. UCSB's season ticket holders (which number more than many schools draw in an entire season) received their College Cup tickets in the mail this week. Most fans I know want to tear them up.

    It's not just because we were screwed. Referees make bad decisions. We all know that. I was as livid as the rest of us when that ref from Mail screwed Mo Edu out of a game winning goal vs Slovenia. Bad decisions marred the World Cup. It happens in soccer sometimes.

    UCSB fans are livid because the NCAA doesn't give a crap about soccer. They don't follow their own rules. Would this ever happen in basketball? Would a referee who doesn't meet the qualifications for meriting a post-season appearance and who's been officiating women's basketball games all year all of the sudden make an appearance in March Madness? Hell no.

    We actually care here in Santa Barbara. No one is saying, "Dude...it's just soccer."

    Of course, I'd love to have a replay. Every fan of a team that gets screwed by a bad decision would love it. Maybe we have a case for one because of the ref's ineligibility. I don't really know. What has to change though is the way the NCAA treats soccer. Soccer is a big deal here. We've been excited for two years to host the College Cup. Now, it's apparent to Santa Barbarians that the NCAA thinks the whole thing is a joke anyway. Yes, we're very, very bitter. Many of us are actually hoping Cal makes it just so we can boo Carrasco all over the field. Of course, he should be serving a lengthy suspension himself anyway, but I shockingly haven't heard a thing about it yet.

    I
     
  11. cristoforo7

    cristoforo7 New Member

    May 14, 2003
    Don't have much time today but wanted to ask a question:

    Let's say the "best" referee in the U.S. was available for a UCSB NCAA tournament game but, because he has been so busy with MLS and international games, he has worked less than 6 NCAA Men's Division I games this fall. Let's say UCSB knew one week in advance that said referee was assigned to do the game. Should UCSB object that the referee is unqualified-- thus likely forcing the NCAA to replace him-- or keep quiet and simply accept that referee, knowing that waiting to see if you lose and then objecting after the fact is not gonna fly?

    Not saying that this situation was the same, but the person who posted that the referee is a National Level USSF referee has a point. Either this referee was up to the level of the game or not, regardless of the NCAA 6 game minimum.

    If UCSB had a problem with it-- even if they learned 3 hours before the start of the game-- UCSB should have lodged a protest at that point. Then at least it was still possible that the 4th official could referee the game instead-- the crew and the assignor and NCAA rep could conference about it and decide what to do. But UCSB kept silent and the game transpired as it did, unfortunately for UCSB.

    Not saying that the NCAA should not enforce its own rules about referee qualification. It is a red herring however to say that this referee's background affected the outcome of the game because the referee had other qualifications (USSF National Referee) that showed he should have been up to the level of the game. (I noticed he centered the Men's Division II Round of 16 game between Chico State and Grand Canyon one week before, and I have seen no negative feedback about that game-- just another piece of data to suggest he was up to the level of the Cal-UCSB game regardless of whether he had 6 Division I Men's games under his belt this fall.)

    Put another way, he may not have had the minimum number of NCAA Men's Division I games this fall but he did appear to have the general experience and training to handle a game of this sort.

    Regardless of how you answer this question, the NCAA should strictly enforce its rule in the future if for no other reason to avoid potential red herring issues about a referee's experience arising out of future games. Regardless of a referee's experience, a school that is on the wrong end of a call or two and loses a game is going to feel "jobbed" if the referee did not meet the 6 game minimum, regardless of whether the referee was actually up to the level of the game or not.
     
  12. Gaucho95

    Gaucho95 Member

    Dec 13, 2004
    Oakland, Ca
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It is not the responsibility of the participating teams to vet the officials prior to the match. That responsibility lies solely and ultimately with the NCAA. You really expect coaches and their staff to abandon their pre-game preparations to look into the qualifications of the ref by scouring the internet? You must be joking.

    The NCAA has clear rules regarding the eligibility of officials, and the NCAA did not follow the rules that it bound upon itself.

    If people want to disagree with the fact that the game should be replayed, that's cool. But muddying the waters with hypothetical situations doesn't change the facts which have been clearly outlined in this thread as well as the UCSB and Cal threads as well as blog postings and newspaper articles. I would think those facts would be incontrovertible but instead of dealing with the facts, I am hearing apologies and justifications being made on behalf of the NCAA.

    But I know people will resort to dismissing the facts by calling UCSB supporters whiners. If you have no cogent and/or persuasive arguments, I suppose people resort to name calling.
     
  13. USAClash

    USAClash Member

    Feb 9, 1999
    Good post. To your point, when the two schools met in the second round in 2002, Brian Hall was the referee. I don't know if the NCAA had the same rules, but nobody would argue Brian Hall is a bad ref. However, let's remember the NCAA rules are different in several regards than MLS. There's no stoppage time in NCAA. Vom Steeg referenced a 2004 Sweet 16 match vs St Johns in the press conference last Sunday. In that match, the referee wasn't on the same page with the timekeeper in the closing seconds and it cost UCSB a goal. A ref not used to college soccer may be prone to those types of errors.

    Bottom line. Rules are made to be followed. Come on NCAA! I realize a capable ref could make the same errors as were made last Saturday, but let's run a Championship fair and square.
     
  14. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You just put a shot in your own argument. You said he wasn't qualified because of the number of women's matches he had done, and now you are saying he is possibly confused about differences between NCAA rules and FIFA LOTG? You already mentioned how many NCAA women's matches he officiated this season. None of the arguments about this game being protested concerned rules violations, but subjective foul/no foul, caution/no caution, etc.

    The NCAA doesn't even assign the playoffs anyway, which is why reading you and others posts is so funny. This year they hired a very highly respected MLS assessor (Dr. Wilbur) to run NCAA playoff assignment. He then appointed regional assignors to assign the games. Tambo - ACC assignor, USSF head assignor (all MLS games, international friendlies) although he recently resigned this postion. Manny Ortiz -SEC assignor and current president of NISOA. A few others as well. My point is these guys could probably really care less about NCAA rules concerning # of games worked, they are going to put the BEST referees available on games regardless.

    Very well said sir!!!! I do however disagree with the NCAA strictly enforcing this rule in the future. Dr. Wilbur and his regional assignors KNOW who the best referees are, without question. Even if a few weren't able to officiate as many games during a particular season to fulfill these requirements, they should be able to assign the best possible officials to what games they see fit. NCAA should just get rid of the rule instead of trying to force the assignors to abide by it.

    To continue his point, and concerning the referee in question. Some of the previous arguments about this 'unqualified' official concerned how many women's matches he has done, and that the NCAA would never let this happen in basketball, 'switching genders' as it were.

    Let's go over how one gets a USSF National Referee badge:

    First, from the start at Grade 8 to upgrade to 7, and all the way up to the National 4 and 3 badge, absolutely NO WOMENS GAMES COUNT FOR ASSESSMENT WHATSOEVER. So, this referee has proven from grade 8 to 7, 7 to State 6, State 6 to State 5, State 5 to National 4, and National 4 to National 3, that he is more than capable of telling GROWN MEN what to do, and that he can manage and referee PROFESSIONAL MEN. Clearly this referee has proven, with I'm guessing close to 100 assessments lifetime, on ALL MEN's matches, that he is up to the task.

    The current requirements for National referees is 4 center assessments and 2 ARs per year, and all of these games must be on very high level matches, and ALL MEN's games. You can look these up in the USSF Referee Administrative Handbook if you like. If USSF has continued to approve a National badge for this referee, clearly he is qualified to officiate men's collegiate games, regardless of the game count he accrued this season.

    So now that his qualifications are in order for you blindly and emotionally bias UCSB fans, you really don't have a leg to stand on. If you want to disagree with subjective calls he made during the match, go for it. But complaining that you got screwed because he wasn't qualified enough is completely bogus and untrue.
     
  15. Gaucho95

    Gaucho95 Member

    Dec 13, 2004
    Oakland, Ca
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I understand that you are a friend of Mike Kampmeinert and that you are trying to defend him. Not necessary. Our "whining" has very little to do with him but rather the way he was selected as a ref... he may be supremely qualified using a number of criteria, some of which you point out very clearly. However, you are failing to address the only qualification that the NCAA uses, and that is namely the fact that he did not come even close to officiating 6 men's D1 contests. That criteria MUST be met according to NCAA rules.

    If the NCAA contracts out selection duties, it remains the responsibility of the contractor (the NCAA) that the subcontractor does it using the guidelines the NCAA set forth. Are you really that dense that you fail to understand this?

    Btw, I am going to guess your first name as Jeremy and a last name that starts with the letter F. I am pretty sure I know who you are and why you are defending your friend, Mike Kampmeinert. You appear to have a dawg in this fight. Actually two, a friend and your officiating fraternity.
     
  16. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't know him. Never even met him, but that's besides the point.

    I didn't make the assignments. Obviously some very knowledgeable and capable NISOA assignors that were appointed as Regional assignors by Dr. Wilbur (the new NCAA assignment coordinator) didn't care too much about the NCAA requirements, or were unable to abide by them due to availability of other 'qualified' officials, one or the other. These assignors are all former National referees, and some are former FIFAs. They know their referees, and their capabilities. They wouldn't assign an unqualified referee to such a high level match.

    Apparently you, and others, are too immature and blinded by emotional bias to your team to realize this is hardly grounds for a protest of the match, as you had a more than qualified official on the game.

    What do you want to bet that NCAA rule is no longer around next year?
     
  17. USAClash

    USAClash Member

    Feb 9, 1999
    What the hell was the point of the rule then? You can say it's a bad rule all you want. You can say they're going to change it. It had to have been a rule for a reason though. Hmmm. Maybe so that someone wouldn't have been rusty being the head official of a D1 soccer match and end up officiating an important tournament match.

    The bottom line is that is comes across to the public that the NCAA ignores its own rules. The potential buyers of College Cup tickets in Santa Barbara are really unimpressed by this. It looks like a bush league operation.

    We're totally justified in protesting the match. It's clear to every neutral fan that the ref screwed up a crucial decision that impacted the outcome of the match. By the NCAA's own rules he wasn't supposed to be there. Who cares if it's a technicality? We still were screwed and he wasn't supposed to be there.
     
  18. skipper60601

    skipper60601 Member

    Aug 12, 2005
    Club:
    Hibernian FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I doubt a single one of the UCSB supporters posting here would think the match should be replayed due to the technicality concerning the ref had UCSB won. In fact all of you would be ridiculing any Cal supporters who made such an argument.
     
  19. Gaucho Bandsman

    Sep 19, 2010
    Dawg -

    Do you, when reffing a game, pick and choose which rules you will enforce?

    I suspect that you, like any referee worthy of the name, do not - you enforce the rulebook as written, whether or not you agree with it.

    The NCAA has a system for selecting refs, and as far as I can tell, only one major eligibility rule. Ref 6 regular season games. That is the rulebook, and whether or not the assignor agrees with it is irrelevent - he is bound to enforce it, and he did not.

    I can see why the requirement is in place - the NCAA has a different rulebook from FIFA, and every league in the world has a different style of play. It seems to me that the logical way to pick refs for a championship tournament is to pick the top guys who have been calling games all year. There ARE referees who have done that. If you have guys who have been doing a good job in the regular season (and there are numerous refs that fit that description), they should be rewarded with postseason games. Picking an outsider is just asking for trouble. The NCAA officially eliminates that by requiring a referee show that they can call games in the regular season before rewarding them with a postseason game.

    Let me be clear - I don't have a problem with a referee having a bad day. It happens. It's a tough job. The problem happens when somebody who - ACCORDING TO THE ASSIGNING AUTHORITY - is unqualified and has a bad day. Even if he had a good day, he shouldn't have been there. It's not fair to anybody on the pitch, anybody else in the tournament (because when you taint one result, you taint the whole thing) ,or any of the referees who did fulfill the requirements for calling a postseason match. If you choose to have a rulebook, you MUST follow it. There is no opinion there. No wiggle room. You MUST obey the rules. The assignor did not do this. That is wrong, full stop.

    The scary thing for me is that I really doubt that this game is the only one that this sort of thing has happened with. It's a big deal because UCSB has a fan base. It should be a big deal whenever it happens, be it two D-III schools in the first round, or in the College Cup final. If the rulemaking authority does not follow its own rules, what does that say about the authority?
     
  20. CodyJarrett

    CodyJarrett Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Bloomington, IN
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Still don't understand why this topic deserves yet another thread. It's clearly a UCSB topic (despite assertions otherwise) and it should be discussed with everything else UCSB.
     
  21. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    I appreciate the perspective that Dawgs brings, but I think UCSB fans have a legitimate beef. Kampmeinert should not have been assigned this game, and that's not just because of NCAA guidelines. For a prominent match-up such as this one, he simply doesn't have the appropriate experience. I find it hard to believe that nobody else was available. There are plenty of refs in that area who've called games in both college and MLS.

    That's not to say I agree with all of the complaints, though. From what I can make out from the video, Silva's red card was appropriate. The problem is that Carrasco deserved to be sent off, as well, and that was obvious. If Kampmeinert gets a few more games under his belt, he won't make the same mistake again.
     
  22. dorset

    dorset New Member

    Mar 21, 2005
    Santa Cruz
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
  23. Gaucho95

    Gaucho95 Member

    Dec 13, 2004
    Oakland, Ca
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    This document summarizes the rule differences between NCAA, HS, and FIFA:

    http://nisoa.com/wp-content/docs/nisoa_forms/2010_soccer_guide_nisoa.pdf

    So, I would agree that one would want referees that have recently been applying NCAA soccer rules as opposed to FIFA rules in order to minimize the chances that officiating errors are made.

    And the speed of a men's game is different from women's, so I can see the wisdom of the NCAA requiring postseason officials to have recently applied NCAA rules for men's matches.
     
  24. skipper60601

    skipper60601 Member

    Aug 12, 2005
    Club:
    Hibernian FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think UCSB should consider firing its coach. First he admitted that after the controversial red card, several of his players on the bench should have been red carded for verbally abusing the official. And then there was the post-game incident where three players were red carded. The coach told the ref to leave for the sake of his safety.

    How about controlling your players instead, coach?
     
  25. Gaucho95

    Gaucho95 Member

    Dec 13, 2004
    Oakland, Ca
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany

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