R16 Analysis: ARG-MEX - Rosetti (ITA)

Discussion in 'World Cup 2010: Refereeing' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 27, 2010.

  1. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most of us seem to assume the issue is the AR did not see Tevez get his head on the ball, but I wondered whether he simply didn't see when the pass was made by Messi although the opinion here seems clear that an AR at this level simply shouldn't miss a call like this.

    But I, too, thought it was a dynamic, fluid, bang-bang play with the defenders quickly retreating. Before the ball reached Tevez they were in front of him (that is, closer to the goal). If the AR didn't see exactly when Messi made the pass, he might've thought the defenders played Tevez back onside. Even 3 yards only takes a fraction of a second.

    And if you look at the screen shot, there is another Argentine player blocking the AR's view of Messi and the ball.

    (Also, you can see even at the moment of the screen shot, both defenders are retreating in anticipation of clearing a shot off the line)

    As a side issue (perhaps not appropriate for this forum), I wonder how much harder an AR's task is when the GK comes out in a situation like this. Clearly here the AR wound up out of position although that in itself doesn't explain the call. 99% of the time, the second-to-last defender is the last field position player. Why not just determine onside/offside by the last field position player? I love it when GKs go out but why should it be the attacking side's problem (and the crew's) that another defender takes the GK's place in setting the offside trap line?

    (Only exception would be when GK is off the pitch due to injury or equipment adjustment and requires the referee's permission to re-enter the game)
     
  2. joebarnin

    joebarnin Member

    May 3, 2003
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Right away I said, "I think he was offside." It just didn't feel right. And I'm no expert - when my instinct differs from the refs, I'm usually wrong. Got lucky this time, I guess.
     
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If thats going on, we have a pretty serious problem.
     
  4. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :)
    Well, I was just trying to be thorough. Otherwise someone else would mention it. (There's always a critic...)
     
  5. colins1993

    colins1993 Member

    Mar 1, 2001
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This could never happen my friend because the game cannot restart without a keeper thus the ref would not need to beckon him on. You can't have a game without a keeper.
     
  6. CanadaFTW

    CanadaFTW Member

    Jun 21, 2007
    That AR doesn't look that far out of position. He is about a yard inside the dark green cut and the offsides line is approximately 3 yards inside (if not less than that as the 2LD is actually a bit further upfield). When you also consider that the 2LD was moving quickly, I don't think the AR's positioning is that terrible. Not perfect, but to me, not outside a reasonable range. Any AR is going to be 2 yards from the 2LD at points during a match, so I don't think this really explains the mistake. It certainly appears that Tevez would still look quite offside even from the AR's position.

    Without hearing the conservation between the ref and AR, it is impossible to know what they discussed. The fact that Rossetti went over to talk to him instead of just relying on the radio means he smelled a problem and wanted to really see and hear what his AR saw. It would be really interesting to know what they discussed and how close Rossetti was to changing the call.

    As a question, if Rossetti sees a replay of the play before finishing talking to the AR, does he almost have to recuse himself from over-ruling the call because he has forbidden information? Almost ironic that replay in the stadium may actually make the referees job harder during the match (and not just in the post-match analysis).
     
  7. Chastaen

    Chastaen Member+

    Alavés
    Jul 9, 2004
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When I saw him clearing the players away to talk to the AR alone I said he didn't want the conversation over the headsets...so I think they knew they were in a pickle.

    I would think he could not overrule it if he noticed it on the video board, as that would be using instant replay and then both sides would have an issue. I think that may have been what happened actually, as the Argentines were pointing up at something during the discussion on the touch.
     
  8. Falc

    Falc Member+

    Jul 29, 2006
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    The AR signals goal right away. FIFA only shows one view of the goal. Nothing else. You see more of the SONY ad. Looks like he did not catch a sight of Tevez when Messi returned the rebound. When the ball reached Tevez, the two Mexican defenders were near him. It was a bang-bang play and just something that was missed.

    http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/goals/video/video=1261779/index.html
     
  9. CanadaFTW

    CanadaFTW Member

    Jun 21, 2007
    This idea that both Rossetti and the AR and the 2nd AR and even the 4th official missed Tevez's touch is very unconvincing to me. First, Tevez should arguably be flagged for offside if he doesn't touch the ball, and second, Tevez didn't try to hide that he touched the ball.

    So for me, I think it is far more likely that something else went wrong than that.

    EDIT: Re watched the play again. Rosetti looks at the AR for quite a while after the goal, and I really have to think that he thinks it was offside but isn't 100% sure (maybe 80-90%).

    He does also have a really long conversation with the AR, which was going fine until Argentina comes running in pointing at the video board. I do have to think that showing a replay hurt the officials chance to make the correct call, as it would be quite the conundrum for Rosetti if he saw it on the video board.

    EDIT2: The AR started the play in perfect position, and never stops moving towards the goal. I think the criticism of his positioning is quite unjustified, as he is in a pretty reasonable position for the proceeding play.
     
  10. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And unfortunately the critics are often right. :)
     
  11. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    Sorry, but I don't view this as one that is being nitpicked with the benefit of replay after the fact. I was at a restaurant without the benefit of sound and said immediately that it was offside; I kept waiting to see Tevez's reaction to being told it wasn't going to count and then realized that they had put the goal up in the score. I then waited to see what I had missed, but I hadn't.

    As for the AR, unlike the Germany-England situation where he was in the correct position and you recognize that it's not physically possible to get from there to the end line as fast as the ball does, I really have no idea what the AR was doing or thinking. I suppose the odd part of the play was that there were two defenders behind the goalie not just one as is often the case in such situations. But the picture quite clearly shows that he wasn't in line with the second to last defender nor was he in line with the goalie; he just seemed to get caught in the middle, and probably as much grief from an assessment point of view for that as for missing the call. I'm sorry, but at this level, the fact that the play is "busted" doesn't cut it for being out of position like this. And, then, even from that position, I don't see how he misses the call unless, as some suggested, he just didn't realize that Tevez got a touch on it, but that's where some combination of Tevez's celebration and headset communication comes in.

    I was actually curious about the extended discussion that the CR then had with the AR on the side line. I don't recall the last time I saw such a situation in a match at this level. Did he just get drawn over there as a result of the Mexico players going at the AR and then proceed to conversation after getting them away? Or is it possible that the headset wasn't working? Nothing more than a guess, but even to engage in this type of discussion in the first place, I've to believe the CR is saying to the AR that he thought it was offside -- i.e., are you absolutely sure -- and the answer must have come back definitively confident.
     
  12. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    This really is an interesting part of what transpired. I suspect he got drawn over there to stop the dissent and get things moving, but that doesn't explain sticking around for a conversation. It was pretty unusual at this level, particularly when they've got headsets.
     
  13. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    OK, to address a few things having read through the thread (have been traveling all day, saw the play on my cell phone but not able to surf the thread)...

    Ceasar asked if there might have been communication issues. The answer is a resounding no. As I watched this episode unfold today, I got a horrible sense of deja vu from the December 2006 Rome derby... Rosetti and the same AR completely botching a very complicated PK/DOGSO/no-DOGSO in which he initially sends off the Roma keeper and then rescinds the red and gives him a yellow:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qepfRlLSJs&feature=related"]YouTube- lazio 3 rom 0 (10 dicembre 2006)[/ame]

    These guys have been working together for at least 4 years.

    I defended and will defend Paulo Fandino on the GER-ENG thread, but I have no defense for Stefano Ayroldi today. And as many have pointed out, Rosetti is probably culpable as well.

    I don't think there can be any explanation here except that they just blew it. The only, and I mean only, possibility is that neither of them were sure that Tevez touched the ball?!?! Even then, the way Tevez celebrated should have made it obvious who had the last touch.

    Even out of position, the AR could use the lines on the field to determine Tevez was offside. He was clearly closer to the 6-yard line than either of the last two defenders.

    Rosetti, albeit from a different angle, should have suspected it. He probably could tell Tevez was close. He was at the top of the arc when Tevez headed the ball and had an unimpeded view of Tevez's touch. He was close enough he could have at least suspected Tevez was closer to the goal line, and, furthermore, considering the ping-pong effect of the play, has to be aware that his AR might have gotten confused.

    THAT, I think, is the take-home point here. That ball did a 180 change in direction no fewer than three times in a split second. Ayroldi never stops moving toward the goal line, even after Perez stopped the initial shot and the ball rebounded out to Messi. He is a few yards out of position, probably because he slowed when the ball reversed course. But trying to track the ball, who is playing the ball, the last two defenders (when the fluidity of the play creates one of those rare situations where the keeper is not one of the last two defenders!), and any offside attackers is flippin' hard. Yes, he's a World Cup AR and he should be able to do it, no question.

    But my point is that Rosetti (and perhaps all of us) need to be aware of how complicated this decision becomes for an AR, and recognize that we may need to think them through the call. Was Tevez offside on the shot from outside the PA?

    Yes? Well, I saw him touch it. OK, we've worked together and we're getting this right.

    I don't know? Well, I saw him touch it, he looked closer to the goal area than at least one of the far side defender. Can you confirm for me that he was? Because Stefan, this is huge. This is "Us getting a chance to maybe work the Final" huge.

    And if Ayroldi just doesn't know, then Rosetti has the information he needs... and he needs to go with what he saw. If they both missed it, then they both missed it. It's downright rotten, and shouldn't happen at this level.

    We're asking questions of our AR, not to make the offside decision, but breaking Law 11 down into its elements. We're asking him to draw from that snapshot we're asked to take. And we need to recognize how unbelievably complicated this situation becomes from the AR's point of view, so that we can ask the right questions and draw out the information we need to get this right.
     
  14. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    I think this is exactly what happened. Cannot believe nobody mentioned it until now. I was waiting to say it until looking at the replays on DVR again.

    The AR was, somewhat understandably, 2-3 yards out of position. But Tevez was far enough offside that the AR could have easily made the correct decision to put the flag up, IF the AR had seen when the pass was made.

    The AR must have seen the touch by Tevez into the goal; it was pretty clear.

    The AR was running down the line, not sidestepping, because of the speed of the action. So his peripheral vision was NOT as good as it could have been, had he been sidestepping (which would have been a terrible idea since the players were moving so fast). Because the 2 defenders were tracking back toward goal, the amount of time that Tevez was in offside position was pretty short, and not long after Messi made the pass Tevez was in onside position and that is most likely what caused the AR to screw the pooch on this play.

    It was an unacceptable mistake from the AR at this level, obviously. It seems that it was in the gray area of being obvious enough that the referee could have overruled the AR and made his own decision. Not 100% obvious, unfortunately, and as MassRef pointed out earlier -- the 2 officials having worked together for several years may have worked against Rosetti in this case, as he may have trusted the AR's opinion more than that of an unfamiliar AR.
     
  15. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is what I thought. When seeing it live, I thought it was a good goal. Because even without the burden of having to run back and forth up a touch line, my eyes followed the ball. And by the time the ball got back to Tevez, I thought he was even with the 2TLD. Which, of course, isn't what matters, but the point is, I just don't know where he was when the pass was played.

    Now, regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, I think kolabear's right -- I think the AR was just so discombobulated over the broken play that he just plain missed the call. Didn't miss the Tevez touch, didn't forget that with the goalie moving out that the last green shirt is no longer the benchmark, just made an error on the call, due to bizarre happenings, moving his eyes back and forth on a crazy play, and not being able to get totally in line with where he needed to be.

    My impression is that Rosetti had a feeling the play was offside, and came over to confer in order to (A)make sure the AR was aware of the touch, and (B)possibly gently remind him that since the goalkeeper had moved up, that the last field player wasn't the benchmark anymore. Once he got his AR's input, and the AR says "I know, I know -- I did see the touch. Tevez was moving forward, and the defenders were retreating -- I think they kept him onside" -- Rosetti's hands are tied.

    I would not overrule in that situation, either. The whole point of having a center and a linesman is that the linesman will be in a better position to judge offside/onside. I have to trust that he makes the correct call. Even if he's wrong and I'm right -- he's in a better position than me. I sit in section 107 in Crew Stadium every weekend. Every match, there's a play where I have a different opinion on an offside call than what's actually called. But the play is taking place forty yards to my right. What I think doesn't really matter. The linesman is looking right down the line at it -- I have to assume his look at it is better than mine.

    The fact that the AR in this case was confident in his call doesn't change the fact that it was clearly wrong. But the center shouldn't overrule his linesman on an offside just because he suspects it MIGHT be incorrect. Especially if after talking to him, the AR stands by his call.
     
  16. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's the part of this I don't understand at all:

    People seem to be suggesting that Argentina players were trying to point to the replay on the video board at the stadium. Why would they do that?

    I can certainly understand why the Mexicans were. They're thinking, "That was offside. He's already called it a goal against us -- might as well put up a stink and tell them to look at it." Nothing bad can really happen there. Either they look, realize they screwed up, and call the goal off (not that they would ever do that, really), or they refuse to look, and they stick with the call they've already made.

    But if I'm in a blue shirt, and that guy has just called a goal in our favor, why would I ever want him to look at something that could possibly get him to rule otherwise?
     
  17. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    I see 2 possibilities:

    1. The Argentina players are really stupid, and think that the video replay confirms the play was onside (which it doesn't).

    2. The Argentina players are really smart, and think that if they can make Rosetti look at the video screen, which shows Tevez was offside, he will not be able to change his decision because he received the information from the video screen and they believe he is not allowed to use that information to change a decision.
     
  18. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    100% agree. Remember, the purpose of the offside rule is to promote a passing game, and to prevent the types of scrums in front of the goalie that are part and parcel of hockey. When the GK comes out and takes himself out of the play, then, obviously, neither purpose of the rule is fulfilled.

    The only thing is that such a rule change will put an end to keepers taking PKs, I would think. A small price to pay.
     
  19. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Boy. Talk about crazy like a fox.

    Not a chance I would take. He might throw tradition out the window and actually change the call, but more likely, he'd be convinced that they hosed the call, and would now feel like they "owe" one to Mexico.
     
  20. Cevno

    Cevno Member+

    Aug 27, 2005
    Shifting.
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    "Rosetti was upset when he came into the tunnel at halftime," Aguirre said. "He was upset with him and the replay because it was evidence of his error. They accepted that they were wrong but they couldn't do anything other than [say] 'What can we do to make it up?' "

    So the referee knew he was wrong but did not have the guts to change his decision . Very incomptetent and meek.
     
  21. Caesar

    Caesar Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 3, 2004
    Oztraya
    By law, the referee is not permitted to change the decision once play has been restarted.

    It is unfortunate but that's reality. His hands were tied, it is not a matter of 'guts'.
     
  22. Cevno

    Cevno Member+

    Aug 27, 2005
    Shifting.
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    It was clear almost by the discussion he was having with his assistant after the goal that after seeing tevez celebrate ,he knew that they had made the error.

    Even after the assistant flagged for the goal he kept looking at the assistant .
    I think he was 80/90 % sure at that time that he was offside ,but did not have the guts to overturn his assistant and rely on his instincts after the discussion and pressure from argentinian players.

    He could stand up to pressure of the situation. And since he knew going into the tunnel that he had made a mistake ,then he would have known at that time too.

    Ultimately the referees and their incompetence decided or played a 75 % part in deciding two games yesterday. And that is a international disgrace.
     
  23. Caesar

    Caesar Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 3, 2004
    Oztraya
    Look, we don't know when the refereeing team found out about the error. It's profitless speculation. You could be right, but we simply don't know.

    What I will say is that I don't think that Rosetti would have baulked at reversing the decision if he realised it was wrong before he restarted. Giving this incorrect decision has potentially ended his career. He would have known the ramifications, and 'saving face' simply isn't worth it. As ugly as it would have been, I think he would have reversed it - and for that reason I think he didn't know until it was too late.
     
  24. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    It was clear? By whose standards was that clear? You're assuming you know the discussion they were having without being there to hear it.

    These referees had to make a decision based on information they gathered in under a second. That decision was also under the careful scrutiny of a stadium full of people and millions watching all over the globe. You've never been in that situation, and you call them meek?

    Thank goodness we have people who are bravely commenting on the cowardly actions of the referees who are beset this painfully easy task of officiating a world cup game.
     
  25. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    An international disgrace is how many people die from lack of clean water or curable disease everyday. This however is a GAME, knock off the hyperbole.
     

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