Mayo 28 - elijamos presidente [NSR]

Discussion in 'Colombia' started by efernandez9, May 25, 2006.

  1. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.html

    Argumentum ad Populum (popular appeal or appeal to the majority): The fallacy of attempting to win popular assent to a conclusion by arousing the feeling and enthusiasms of the multitude. There are several variations of this fallacy, but we will emphasize two forms.

    "Snob Appeal": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion by appealing to what an elite or a select few (but not necessarily an authority) in a society thinks or believes.

    (There are many non-fallacious appeals in style, fashion, and politics--since in these areas the appeal is not irrelevant.)


    Person L says statement p or argument A.
    Person L is in the elite.
    Statement p is true or argument A is good.

    "Bandwagon": the fallacy of attempting to prove a conclusion on the grounds that all or most people think or believe it is true.


    Most, many, or all persons believe statement p is true.
    Statement p is true.


    Argumentum struthio camelus

    [​IMG]

    Ademas, partimos de la base de que 9'000.000 de votos realmente fueron por Santos y de que 9 millones son la mayoria de los colombianos... Son solamente 9 millones y la mayoria segun la Registraduria...
     
  2. elviejomen

    elviejomen Member+

    Aug 3, 2007
    Hasbrouck Heights NJ
    Club:
    Junior Barranquilla
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Mas de 9 millones pensaban que la tierra era cuadrada y que era el centro del universo...
     
  3. Baal88

    Baal88 Member+

    May 10, 2008
    Medellin
    Club:
    Independiente Medellin
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Plana. Jaja, a mi me da mucha risa la teoria geocentrica.
     
  4. elviejomen

    elviejomen Member+

    Aug 3, 2007
    Hasbrouck Heights NJ
    Club:
    Junior Barranquilla
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Lol esa vaina, ya me inmagino al Efer de esa epoca creyendose ese cuento
     
  5. pepinointer

    pepinointer Member+

    Mar 12, 2007
    Santiago de Compostela
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Jajaja efer en otra vida mando matar a galileo
     
  6. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    En otra epoca? Si lo dice RCN o VaritoUribe o Santos el les cree hoy....... :p
     
  7. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Whether the majority was by 1 or 1,000,000 Santos won.

    Hitler, Castro, & great leader kill the opposition for or to stay in power. When we do that in Colombia I will have some sympathy on you all.

    I know, the minority in Colombia know it all, but never the less you guys lose again.

    Viva Colombia!
     
  8. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    1. Very questionable majority given all the irregularities that have been spotted. A demand of the election process is in the works.

    2. Give us some simpathy, in this case that is one of the strategies, to kill the people that dissent.

    3. And apparently you don't know anything about how Colombia is governed... Illustrate yourself about how a whole political party was exterminated..

    http://www.desaparecidos.org/colombia/fmcepeda/genocidio-up/cepeda.html
     
  9. Uzuriaga

    Uzuriaga Member+

    Feb 9, 2009
    Estocolmo
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    EXACTLY, where did that guy come from? Is it efer with another name? Thinking colombians don't kill their opposition what a laugh. The typical nobel prize winner who first is oppose to social equality then flees the country so they can benefit those things abroad + support the fascism from abroad since living in the middle of it is just too awful.
     
  10. FLFootballFan

    FLFootballFan Member

    Apr 18, 2007
    Club:
    Nacional de Medellin
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia

    Just checking and making sure: Did you call Uribe and his party fascists? Just for disclosure only.
     
  11. Uzuriaga

    Uzuriaga Member+

    Feb 9, 2009
    Estocolmo
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
  12. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Let's see.. let's do a quick check:

    http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

    Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.


    The 14 characteristics are:
    1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
    CHECKED -



    2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

    Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. CHECKED http://www.ratical.org/ratville/Columbia/TiesThatBind.html


    3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

    The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
    Chavez, FARC, mamertos... CHECKED


    4. Supremacy of the Military

    Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
    Biggest slice of the budget, rampant defence of a General found guilty of crimes against civilians - CHECKED


    5. Rampant Sexism


    The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
    Does anyone remember the name of the last female minister that served under Uribe? Not to mention the plastic surgery boom... CHECKED


    6. Controlled Mass Media


    Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. RCN, Caracol and soon to como Canal Planeta (owned by Santos Family) CHECKED


    7. Obsession with National Security

    Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. Chavez, chavez, chavez... CHECKED


    8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

    Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions. Why is so important suddenly if our president goes to church? We now have a Procurador that is trying to reverse abortion and contraception rights. CHECKED


    9. Corporate Power is Protected

    The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. The GAP between rich and poor grew in the last ten years and the government concentrated on Confianza inversionista, despite unemployment and poverty numbers. CHECKED


    10. Labor Power is Suppressed

    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed . In 2009 almost half of the Union leaders killed in the world were killed in Colombia. CHECKED


    11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts. Lets say that this is not so clear...

    12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. FALSOS POSITIVOS. CHECKED.


    13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. AGROINGRESO SEGURO. CHECKED.


    14. Fraudulent Elections


    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. All media was reporting on low voter turn out due to weather and World Cup, nonetheless apparently 6 million people showed to vote in less than an hour from the last report that stimated the turn out at 7 to 8 million. CHECKED.

    That makes us what 12 out of 14? I am totally with you Uzu.
     
  13. FLFootballFan

    FLFootballFan Member

    Apr 18, 2007
    Club:
    Nacional de Medellin
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia

    Dude....let off the blood pressure. I just asked a simple question so I did not misunderstood what you said. I guess I won't ask again about things and "assume".... Get a whiskey on the rocks and cool off so we can have a good conversation and a healthy exchange.

    By all means, if we can investigate these things (doubtful just being realistic because of how things are in Colombia) and prove them correct, then the appropriate people need to pay justice. Suddenly, we can find some common ground in the fact that a government with a lot of power is dangerous, especially if a bad of group of people take over. In the mean time, quit speaking for everyone and being so classy to prejudge what other people's situation was for leaving Colombia without knowing their circumstances. What about you??? Are running for office in Colombia to change things?? Are you making sure justice gets done??
     
  14. FLFootballFan

    FLFootballFan Member

    Apr 18, 2007
    Club:
    Nacional de Medellin
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    I was just asking a question....that's all..... I was erring on the side of making sure. What's the problem with that?
     
  15. Uzuriaga

    Uzuriaga Member+

    Feb 9, 2009
    Estocolmo
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Fair enough. I actually took your whiskey advice believe it or not, thanks for reminding me. ;) On running for office, I'd love to participate in the campaign for some political party but I'm not suicidal and I prefer keeping a low profile.

    You're right I might've been out of line with some of the stuff I said. I know that regardless of what president we have colombia just won't turn into a first world country from one day to the next. Still however I think it's disgraceful to hear about guys now going abroad to find work in places like ecuador, chile and even venezuela, I mean wtf?!? Maybe colombia won't ever be a economically safe country, but we certainly can equal or top those countries. When ppl are escaping to those countries and smaller countries than colombia does better than us economically then there is really something wrong, wouldn't you agree?
     
  16. FLFootballFan

    FLFootballFan Member

    Apr 18, 2007
    Club:
    Nacional de Medellin
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia

    For that, you can't blame honest and hard working people looking for opportunities....You and I know that most of the people that leave would come back in a New York second if they could thrive economically......;)..... As for the people that stay there and live there while not making an honest living......then for those I don't have an ounce of sympathy....and would call for them to be part of the solution and not the problem.
     
  17. elviejomen

    elviejomen Member+

    Aug 3, 2007
    Hasbrouck Heights NJ
    Club:
    Junior Barranquilla
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    A Jaime Garzon lo asecinaron y el gobierno en ese momento era considerado "democratico"

    PS a uno de los que mas criticaba garzon en ese tiempo era a Uribito... :rolleyes:
     
  18. Uzuriaga

    Uzuriaga Member+

    Feb 9, 2009
    Estocolmo
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    I'm not blaming the people at all. I'm blaming the society for not being able to produce better work opportunities for them. The tragedy is not the fact that they leave, the tragedy is that they have a reason to do so. (talking about moving to countries that should not be that different from us, not moving to first world countries)
     
  19. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    FFF: read the Essay "Donde esta la franja amarilla", it will tell you all that we claim here in a very structured way. It is not that people don't look for opportunities, is that there are basically none if you don't have connections, meaning if you are not somehow part of the stablishment. For most people the only way to move upward is to somehow get involved in drug traffiking or some other illegal business..


    And not even the society but our ruling class. Even when the moment has been ripe for changes that will benefit the whole country they have managed to stiffle the surge and hold change back and keep their privileges. Is not that our society has not been able to progress, is that our "leaders" have been very good at keeping things the way they are.
     
  20. FLFootballFan

    FLFootballFan Member

    Apr 18, 2007
    Club:
    Nacional de Medellin
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Los dineros sucios y de la mafia Han estado en la politica Colombiana de hace rato... Como hacemos para limpiar eso!!??? Lo triste es q en Colombia Han pasado generaciones q no conocen lo q es una republica constitucional... Como se saca la mafia de la politica ??? Y como se limpia la corrupcion sin q lamafia te eche Mano?? O sea , q fue primero el huevo o la gallina!?:(
     
  21. JPAcolombia9

    JPAcolombia9 Member

    Oct 27, 2006



    so what would you guys do with Stalin Jr. neighboring your country? make defense non existent? i really wanna hear how that works out. marxism has terrorized our nation for decades. obviously its gonna play a pivatol role in public opinion whether that means voting or what have you. elections shouldn't be based off of fear, i agree, but last time we tried to go to the left it was a pretty big fail and we saw that liberal all-stars like Samper and Gaviria were just as mediocre as the "fascists" you point out.

    but anyway im just curious to hear what the "rite" thing to do in colombia's situation in terms of avoiding marxism succeeding and taking power in colombia according to you lot would be. . that is unless of course you guys do want colombia to be like venezuela and co.
     
  22. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    And by choosing to discuss him above all the other things in the list you are partly proving my point. Colombia is as obsessed with Chavez as he is with Colombia. But what most people fails to realize is that Uribe needs him as much as he needs lafar, he needs enemies, scapegoats ergo he makes him the focus of his propaganda while conveniently ignoring the real cause of most of our violence... Or wasn't Colombia a violent country way before Chavez got to power?

    One thing is to acknowledge that he exists and that is a threat to deal with, another thing is to make him the center of our foreign policy and the culprit of every little thing that happens in our country. Just go to any forum and try to voice an opinion that contradicts the regime, you will get the following answer: "If you don't like it move to Venezuela"

    By all means, recognize the threat, but why focus all your energies on it, when the country is doing so bad in almost every other aspect of politics, economics, society?


    See, the obsession again? Who says that our only alternative is to become Venezuela? Don't you think that it is possible that by solving our more urgent problems (like unequality, unemployment, justice - or lack of it) some issues will take care of themselves? How about putting some effort in getting everyone the POSIBILITY to earn a decent income? Have you heard of guerrillas in countries were people has a fair standard of living or where their voice is not stiffled when they voice their opinion?
     
  23. Uzuriaga

    Uzuriaga Member+

    Feb 9, 2009
    Estocolmo
    Club:
    America de Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Joseph McCarthy Jr has spoken...

    There are actually more alternatives for a government than Uribe-style or Chavez-style...
     
  24. efernandez9

    efernandez9 Member

    Jun 6, 1999
    Joe Pool Lake
    obscure lot that is.
    rare way of taking a huge defeat on the polls!


    check :eek:
     
  25. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's good that there are diffrent points of view, and I respect Dapips and the rest of the hippies view. Never the less they are not mine. People in Colombia will continue to move toward the left like in most countries asking for hand outs so you guys arent to far off from winning an election.

    If Chavez and the FARC were not a threat to Colombia, this election might have been diffrent. They are a threat to Colombia not the other way around. Well at least thats how I see it, you all might think that we threating Chavez and his FARC. Thats not being Fascist that's wanting Colombia to be free and for her people to live in peace.

    Uzuriga, I've been a member since 2004. Why would it matter that I just joined the conversation, newbie.
     

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