Premature Speculation: Just how good is Lionel Messi?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Apr 12, 2010.

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  1. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    So I've been deliberating on whether to start this thread or whether to wait until after the World Cup.

    Basically the question is a simple one. How good is Messi at the moment, and how good can he become?

    I think in recent months (if not before) he has clearly established that he is the best in the world at the moment. But where does this put him on the all-time scale?

    Is he performing at the level of an uber great and if so where can he finish in the pecking order of greatness. How does he compare at this point in time to the other historical legeds?
     
  2. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I wanted to start a similar thread ... ;)

    1) How good is Messi right now?
    Peak only:
    I'd say it's safe to say he is the 2nd best player the world has seen since Maradona - after Il Fenomeno (tbh I'm not so sure if he isn't better already...)

    + career:
    So if Messi would retire tomorrow (I really don't want to jinx it) he would be borderline Top 50 I'd say. Not bad for a 22-year old.

    2) How good can he become?
    The two major factor imo are:
    - WC10 & WC14
    - Injuries

    His chances to end up in the and some rough guidelines
    Top20: 75% - barring any serious injury or sudden deterioration he will be there

    Top10: 50% - great WC performance and/or 2-3 years in his current form

    Players he needs to pass:
    Ronaldo
    Zidane
    Zico
    Garrincha
    Puskas
    Platini

    Peak: Messi already has a better peak than Zidane and is close (or even better?) to the other 5.

    WC/Euro: 5 out of 6 of these player have 1 or even 2 great (in the case of Garrincha and Platini I'd even say monumental) WC/Euro performances.

    Longevity: Messi has 4 world class seasons - the others a minimum of 6.
    He's only 22 so it's very likely he'll reach that soon.

    Top5: 25% - monumental WC performance and/or 4-5 years in his current form

    Players he needs to pass:
    Di Stefano
    Beckenbauer
    Cruyff
    Maradona
    Pele

    Out of reach right now we might get there in a few years
     
  3. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Often I've heard people say that with today's tactics and athleticism it is impossible to dominate the game as players like Di Stefano, Pele, Cryuff or Maradona used to dominate. As the argument goes, players today don't have enough time, not enough space, and so on. But Ronaldo proved in the late 90s and Messi is proving now that if a phenom arrives, he can still be dominant.

    The question is, can he do it over the long term? Ronaldo had a serious injury that significantly impacted his play, and while he remained a very good player, he was not the same dominant force after that.

    Messi has been truly dominant for the past two seasons, arguably three. But to be in the pantheon, he has to keep playing at a high level over time. Lets see where he is five years from now, ten years from now, how much he continues to impact his team, how many goals he scores, how many championships his team can win, how much he can impact a World Cup, and so on. I think he has the game to be at the very top, but we'll have to wait and see to what extent he can fulfill his promise.

    I think it helps Messi that he is in a great situation at Barca, as Pele was with Santos, Di Stefano with Real, and Cryuff with Ajax.

    But the kid is something special, I'm glad he's Argentine, but even if he wasn't, he's a joy to watch for a fan of the game. Just this week, watching him play against Arsenal and then against Real Madrid, what a treat!
     
  4. Ecclesiastes2003

    May 30, 2003
    If you browse the boards all you read about is Messi as if he was the only elite phenomenon youngster in world football today. I admit Ronaldo has had better seasons, but Higuain (age 22) is only 3 goals or so behind Messi in the Pichichi hunt and Rooney (age 24) has practically as many goals as Messi. Luis Suarez (age 23) has more goals than Messi this season (32), he already is captain of a historical European heavyweight like Ajax, and even given that the Eredivisie is not as strong as La Liga, he is on track to possibly become the European Golden Shoe this season, and he can provide assists like Messi as well (most assists in Eredivisie last season). I'm not necessarily saying these players are better than Messi, but they belong in the same conversation (Suarez especially because like Messi he can score goals and give assists, so can Rooney but now that Ronaldo is gone his assists are down).
     
  5. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Short answer: Watch them play

    Klaas-Jan Huntelaar scored 33 goals in 34 games for Ajax btw.
     
  6. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    He's been playing like a baby great since he first started playing for Barcelona's senior team, and he has just now grown up and started playing like an uber great. Right now he's Ronaldinho in 2005, but with a completely different determination and ambition.

    His only limit is injury and age. Where he finally stands will depend on his health and also what kind of player he becomes when his speed and quickness diminishes a little.
     
  7. j710

    j710 New Member

    Mar 19, 2010
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    Paraguay
    he can become and he is the best player in the world
     
  8. Lamps>Gerrard

    Lamps>Gerrard Member

    Feb 15, 2009
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So a few strikers have LESS goals than him? Fascinating. Suarez is playing in the dutch league, you know, the place where Kuyt, Kalou, Afonso Alves, and Huntelaar were prolific goal scorers. :rolleyes:

    There is, without much doubt, that Messi is the best in the world right now. A great world cup will propel him into MASSIVE heights. If he can maintain this level of club play for a couple more seasons, he'll be a Barfa legend. Consistency is key, but a stellar World Cup does wonders for players' reputations.

    The kid is on track. So let's sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
     
  9. Pass-n-Go

    Pass-n-Go Member+

    Jul 5, 2008
    Messi is sublime. He is also still in development. A brilliant attacker but not the fulcrum of the attack. That is the next step in my opinion. Right now, his game still feeds off a playmaker. I believe it explains why he is not the same for the Arg NT as he is at Barca recently. Messi has Xavi being the conductor at Barca. He had Riquelme doing that for the national team(Copa America).
     
  10. schafer

    schafer Member+

    Mar 12, 2004
    I'm just wondering what people's thoughts are on this particular statement. Is there a consensus now that he's equaled or surpassed Ronaldinho's peak? He's more prolific, obviously, and probably more consistent in general but I don't know that he's shown the sort of flashes of genius/unpredictability that characterized Ronaldinho's best form.
     
  11. Pass-n-Go

    Pass-n-Go Member+

    Jul 5, 2008
    What you mean? You think Messi only "sees" the passes that are there and not the ones he can't "see"?
     
  12. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    He's already a Barca legend. Tied with Rivaldo for all time Barcelona Champions League leading scorer at age 22. Tenth leading scorer in Barcelona history at 22. Youngest player to 100 goals for Barcelona. Only Barcelona player to score consecutive league hat tricks. Seven goals in his eight games against Real Madrid. It goes on...
     
  13. schafer

    schafer Member+

    Mar 12, 2004
    My post wasn't intended as a criticism of Messi, it's just that I do think Ronaldinho at his best was more creative than Messi has shown to date. I don't think Messi has shown the capability to hit the kind of outrageous passes that were a big part of Ronaldinho's game (his pass to Giuly against Milan, for example). That's hardly a slight on Messi though, because he's an excellent passer in his own right and obviously has areas in which he is much stronger than Ronaldinho was/is. I'm just wondering whether people think he's eclipsed Ronaldinho's best form yet.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Ecclesiastes2003

    May 30, 2003
    Yeah the Dutch league, you know, the place where Cruyff, Van Basten, Gullit, Bergkamp, Kluivert, Larsson, Laudrup, Hasselbaink, Kanu, Litmanen, Makaay, Ibrahimovic, Romario, Robben, Ronaldo, Sneijder, Van Nistelrooy, Van Persie (among others) were goal scorers as well. It's not the best league, but it's no pushover league either...
    ...I know the Eredivisie is no La Liga (acknowledged as much in my previous post), but I insist, underestimate Suarez at your own peril. He doesn't have the supporting cast that Messi does, is around Messi's age, and is in the running for the European Golden Shoe. Like I said I'm not necessarily saying he is better than Messi, just that him, Messi and Rooney are in the same general category of world's best players and are all at a similar age.
     
  15. Breadman

    Breadman New Member

    Apr 9, 2010

    Nope, not in the same league as Roony or Messi or CR. He's young and very talented but contrary to popular opinion numbers do lie. He's playing in the dutch league man, no pushover but as you said no Prem. or La liga.

    Doesn't have the supporting cast of Messi? Hope, your not insinuating that Messi's has been dependent this season on his teammates, because it's actually been quite that opposite. But yea overestimate Suarez at your own peril.

    Based on performance this year it's between Messi with Rooney & CR behind. All three are dominating much tougher competition and are much more talented players. So much so that it isn't a slight on his ability as a player. Only thing he has in common with them is he's young.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Ecclesiastes2003

    May 30, 2003
    Is it all about playing in the Premiership, La Liga, or Serie A? I admit it is a BIG plus, but Pele never did (no I am in NO WAY saying Suarez is close to Pele), and that takes nothing away from his greatness. Besides, the people that decide the European Golden Shoe factor in the relative strength of each league when granting the award, so if Suarez wins it, it will be well deserved.

    Just how good is Lionel Messi? As of right now, of the players I originally mentioned, imho it's Messi ≥ Rooney ≥ C.Ronaldo ≥ Higuain ≥ Suarez.
     
  17. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    They're very different players, but IMO he has comfortably passed Ronaldinho's peak in the last two years. Ronaldinho was undeniably more unpredictable and capable of brilliant flashes, but Messi has more end product and performs more consistently.

    As good as Ronaldinho was I was far from ever convinced that he was the out and out best player in the world at any stage.

    Messi is now playing at an incredible level. The question is being asked whether he is performing now as well as Ronaldo at his best, or even Maradona at his. Ronaldinho never got near that level.

    In fact either comparison (with Ronaldo or Maradona) is scary. Because both players had peaks about as good as anything in the game's history. Now Messi has the luxury of playing in a better club side than either of these two, so the numbers alone cannot decide his level, but his performances have been sensational and the door is open for him to cement his greatness.
     
  18. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    This has been gone over in the past ad nauseum, but in summary, Pele was playing in a Sao Paulo league with half of Brazil's best players at a time when Brazil could win 3 out of 4 World Cups. He then proved himself in many other competitions.

    Suarez is playing in the Eredivisie at its weakest point in history. He's a good player, but at this moment in time he doesn't even enter the debate with Messi.
     
  19. Tribune

    Tribune Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    Just curious, why do you mention Ronaldo or Maradona as terms of comparison, but not Pele ? Do you consider the latter to be untouchable ?
     
  20. couper99

    couper99 New Member

    Feb 1, 2010
    you cannot compare Messi to Suarez. Messi is far superior.
    compare suarez with fernando torres, david villa, drogba, etc.
     
  21. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Not untouchable, but far less comparable.

    Messi's play is reasonably comparable in style to Maradona (though obviously not exactly the same), and the Ronaldo comparison is natural given the heights that the Brazilian hit when he was at a similar age and also with Barcelona.

    Pele on the other hand is a completely different kettle of fish. He was obviously playing in a completely different leage set up, in a different continent and in a very different era. Furthermore he could really do everything (and I know you know all this), he had every facet to his game with pace, power, dribbling, was exceptional with both feet and in the air, and also was blessed with amazing vision. Messi has a number of these attributes, but not all of them, and so they are far less comparable.

    Also you have to factor in the incredible early success that Pele had with the national team. By the time he was Messi's current age he had already won 2 World Cups.

    For me I think Pele is out in front as number 1. Then come the next group of 5, with Maradona, Di Stefano, Puskas, Cruyff and Beckbauer in an order that could go many ways. I think Messi is almost certain already to earn a place in at least tier 3 (your Zicos, Garrinchas, Platinis, Ronaldos), and quite possibly tier 2, but I think that Pele's completeness allied with his incredible numbers and achievements will make overhauling him very difficult indeed.
     
  22. couper99

    couper99 New Member

    Feb 1, 2010

    very well said.
     
  23. GranCanMan

    GranCanMan Member

    Jan 12, 2007
    Manchester
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Best player in the world at the moment, no doubt. To analyse any further is difficult.

    The one great sdhame about his form is that other players are now being dismissed, without proper consideration being shown or the their different circumstances.

    Rooney has been castigated by some in the wake of Messi's searing form, whilst Ronaldo and Kaka have all but been forgotten. Messi is playing in, by far, the best club side in the world. Even if you took him out of that side, they'd unliekly miss him too much, because of how the entire team are. The sdame cannot be said of Rooney and Man Utd, or Ronaldo / Kaka at Real Madrid. All are fabuously talented, but in lesser sides.

    Nonje have what Merssi has, but all bring their own unique qualities to the table.

    Messi is certainly making a good fist of joining the greats, though. I've not seen anything like it since Ronaldo in 2008, when he scorched in 42 goals for us though.
     
  24. GranCanMan

    GranCanMan Member

    Jan 12, 2007
    Manchester
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Best player in the world at the moment, no doubt. To analyse any further is difficult.

    The one great sdhame about his form is that other players are now being dismissed, without proper consideration being shown or the their different circumstances.

    Rooney has been castigated by some in the wake of Messi's searing form, whilst Ronaldo and Kaka have all but been forgotten. Messi is playing in, by far, the best club side in the world. Even if you took him out of that side, they'd unliekly miss him too much, because of how the entire team are. The sdame cannot be said of Rooney and Man Utd, or Ronaldo / Kaka at Real Madrid. All are fabuously talented, but in lesser sides.

    Nonje have what Merssi has, but all bring their own unique qualities to the table.

    Messi is certainly making a good fist of joining the greats, though. I've not seen anything like it since Ronaldo in 2008, when he scorched in 42 goals for us. But whilst Ronaldo was hitting untoucable high at that point, I get the impression that this form is Messi's "par", which is scary if it is...............
     
  25. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Member+

    Dec 5, 2005
    Macondo
    The thing is Messi has maintained that consistency for well over a year. This is his second season in a row that he's scored 38 goals or more. This is his second season in a row where he's likely to finish as CL top scorer. I'm too lazy to look but I don't recall the last time a player did that. It was probably Ruud.

    As brilliant as Ronaldo was when he scored 42 he didn't even hit 30 the next season.

    People also seem to underrate Messi's passing. He has 16 assists last year. This season he currenty leads La Liga in assists.
     

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