promotion and relegation*

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by MetroZebra, Jul 27, 2002.

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  1. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Believe or not, people are endorsing the plan on the site, and contributing.

    So no, when I mean we, I say we. When I mean I, I say I.

    Sounds like Bob Marley.
     
  2. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That would put them on par with a reasonably well supported championship club. The top clubs make 10 times that figure.


    Urawa Red Diamonds draw around 45000 in Japan, in an open league, and are nowhere near the top clubs.

    I know it's not a point you made, but Seattle wouldn't become a top club even if they filled the whole of their stadium. Look at Celtic in Scotland. For years (except this year) they've been getting 60,000 week in, week out, and never amounted to much.
     
  3. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, in the most basic form there are only 3 types of companies in the US

    Non Profit- which you claim you are, but aren't

    Political Action- which you claim you are and are not

    For Profit- which you must be because you are neither of the other 2

    Non Profits operate to advocate or help, as a foundation or resource group

    Political Actions operate to influence government

    For Profits operate to provide a good or service and to make money for the owner or ownership group.

    So by default you are operating to line your own pocketbook. Now if the positions (which you don't mention what they are) are unpaid, and you are making peanuts (as you claim), then I guess you just don't have a good business model.
     
  4. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I'm sure you do have a name beside your own signed up on the site, but the "we" I was referring to was more your "organisation" where "all positions are currently unpaid".

    It's "all one" of the positions, isn't it?
     
  5. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even if I was operating to line my own pocketbook, which I'm not, you all put that out there as a virtue when it comes to MLS. Profits come before quality of play, the MLS defenders say.

    We're an advocacy group, that pushes an agenda. Therefore, even though we don't make a profit, we can't file for non-profit status.

    Thanks for the econ lesson, and the attempts to discredit the source instead of taking on the topic. Shows I'm making headway.
     
  6. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a few more than one, I'm afraid.
     
  7. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Actually I have tried to discuss the topic- you refuse to discuss points, just give you few standard answers.

    I have asked for examples of numbers of how many in the group, examples of what the money goes to, and you claim to answer.

    So yes, I will discredit.

    Also- there is no shame in being a for profit Compand, McDonalds, as you like to slam is a very good one. They provide a good and people spend money, and others make money

    So I'm asking- If I spend money to help you, what is my money going to (concrete examples)

    All non profit and advocacy groups can give examples, well all except you.

    Also:

    AARP is an advocy group that pushes an agenda, yet they are a non-profit
    MADD is an advocy group that pushes an agenda, yet they are a non-profit
    the NRA is an advocy group that pushes an agenda, yet they are a nonprofit


    Care to try again?
     
  8. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Still, no League is limiting how Celtic spends their meager cash. No "commissioner" is telling them how to run their show.
     
  9. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So.. Why are people feeding the troll?
     
  10. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All I do is reference McDonalds and MLS. If you draw that as a negative, that's your business.

    Your money is going nowhere, because, and correct me if I'm wrong:

    You haven't contributed.

    Contributions go to advocating for the implementation pro/rel and fully independent clubs in the USA - one supporter at a time.

    You'll learn of our membership totals in good time. Stay tuned.
     
  11. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please keep ignoring me. I am talking about promotion and relegation, which happens to be the title of the thread.

    How is it to be a supporter of a league limited club these days?
     
  12. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're giving me ammunition to apply for the status, that's for sure. Political campaigns cannot be non-profits, and we currently operate under that model, so as to avoid limits on our communications, and not diversify into a bureaucracy that NRA and AARP need to do unrestricted advocacy work under a version of their parent company name.

    Now, moderators, is this far enough off topic yet?
     
  13. pdog93

    pdog93 New Member

    Jan 18, 2010
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    mls.1 14 teams

    2, 7 team conferences

    top 3 teams enter playoffs

    playoffs would be

    E1 v W1 winner qualifies for final

    E3 @ W2 and W3 @ E2

    winners play at neutral venue

    winner of that match would play against the loser from the 2 first place teams

    winner of this would be second team in mls cup final

    mls.1 relegation :-

    bottom team in each coference relegated

    2nd bottom teams playoff loser enters playoffs with teams in positions 3 to 7 in mls.2

    winner of this series would take final mls spot

    mls.2 single table home and away top 2 teams promoted teams 3 to 7 in playoffs




    mls.1 conference winners qualifies for champions league as well as us open cup winner and the team that wins the 4 team series in the playoffs

    next 4 best teams including play off losers play in superliga
     
  14. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not going to step into the pettiness that's been on the last ten pages of this. I'm going to go back to what someone said quite a while back:

    Promotion and relegation in MLS is NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN until there are so many independent, interested, financially capable cities/clubs knocking on MLS' door that it doesn't make sense not to have it. And even then, convincing the current MLS clubs that it's a good idea would be a tough sell.

    Finding a bunch of people willing to invest big-time money for a sport that's conceived as "second-tier" in America is hard enough. Finding people that are willing to do it in a system where being in the majors isn't even guaranteed is even harder. And telling the current MLS owners that it's a good idea that they should go along with -- somebody who's a better salesman than I am will have to work on that one.

    Second of all, I just don't see the glamor behind the whole set-up in the first place. Having teams at the bottom of the table having meaningful matches to play really isn't my biggest concern. My biggest concern is that all member clubs are on a fair competitive platform with a shot at financial viability.

    Third of all, even if promotion and relegation happen, I doubt MLS is going to get rid of the salary cap. The salary cap is there for several reasons. American leagues like it, it keeps spending from getting out of hand, competitive balance, financial survival -- you know, trivial stuff. So even with promotion and relegation, the "superclubs" that everyone's pining for aren't going to automatically spend their way into automatic survival. Which means there's going to come a time when New York, Seattle, Philadelphia, and Los Angeles are all in the lower division, and therefore not attracting big name players or competing for championships or being on national TV. Is that what you want?

    Fourth of all, and I can't believe I've never seen this point brought up in this discussion before, it could be a disaster for scheduling. In order for this to happen, in a way that makes sense, you'd have to have at least, I'll say 16 teams in the top division. What do you do? Balanced schedule/single table, or conferences? Either way, there's no way to know who's in and who's out in a given season. Suppose at any given moment, the new clubs, say, St. Louis, Atlanta, Miami, and Montreal (and this isn't an argument about who should be the expansion cities, so don't turn it into one -- just work with me here) are in the top division, and let's say the clubs that are currently relegated are Seattle, Portland, Chivas, and San Jose. Whoops!! All of a sudden, the unique geography and travel problems of our rather sizable continent are suddenly magnified. Now you've got three-quarters of the league in either the eastern or central time zones, who barely have to travel, and two or three teams stuck out west for which travel would be a complete nightmare. I can't imagine that's something that owners would want to get themselves into. You can dismiss this as trivial if you want, but travel costs are a bigger factor here than in other leagues/countries. Plus which, the lopsided team locations would make the possibility of conferences pretty unrealistic/illogical, and there are going to be people who would still prefer them. If the number of teams or the number of matches played turns out to be different from what I've suggested, conferences might need to be the way to go to make things more logical, and the conferences could wind up looking ridiculous. And who would decide who was in what conference?

    I don't see MLS taking on all of this stuff solely for the purpose of being "more like the rest of the world", or to "legitimize" the league in the minds of a lot of people who are going to bitch no matter what they do anyway. Seriously, some of you people are never going to be satisfied with anything the league does anyway, so they're not going to make big sweeping changes with no real benefit just to try to shut you up, so quit holding your breath.

    P.S.: Soccerreform.us: You're on my ignore list, so don't respond. I won't see it.
     
  15. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    So how many, or is that secret too?
     
  16. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wether or not pro/rel will ever happen,

    This idea has a lot of flaw.

    1. wouldn't we want the top 2 teams to meet in the final???? having them play beorehand, while a 2nd or 3rd place team is guaranteed a spot in the final is backwards.

    have 2E v 3W, winner plays 1W and 2W v 3E, winner plays 1E.

    2. 14 team league is VERY SMALL for a league the size of the United States and Canada. Heck the league now is 16 (18) teams. So you are going to start by knocking 2 current, and 2 expansion teams down a level before they play a game??

    3. You are going to relegate as many as 3 out of 14 teams?? this seems VERY HIGH.
     
  17. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lots of good things in your post, just quoting this because I like your optimism about people thinking soccer is second-tier. I would say most people think hockey is second-tier and that soccer is third, maybe fourth tier.
     
  18. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The American soccer model is a different design than what you're referring too. There is no pyramid in the sense that you talk about.

    You'd love it if people just gave you everything. In fact, that's apparently what you're hoping for because when asked for reasons to allow you in, or reasons why people should change over to your opinions ... you don't give answers.

    And without that approach, we'd have dead club soccer again. The NASL you love so much went all out for players and product on the pitch. Again, where are they ?

    No, but you're being ignorant for your own sake once again. You know exactly what that point was and it kicked you in the nuts. Seattle pulling the support they do means nothing when you've got plenty of clubs (of which Norwich is an example) pulling the same if not more support but are unable to put forth that level of a club.

    I already told you I'm not even looking for one because it's completely irrelevent to pro/rel and the open system. I'm also not going to do it because you simply refuse the truth of the matter in the capping of Seattle's season tickets. You want to call people out for ignoring your "arguments" and "points" yet you act like nobody is making any in your direction. In fact, I've already invited you to go back and answer the dozens of questions posed to you ... and I'm still waiting.

    I already told you once. Don't make the mistake of pretending to know what I think. I explained it in language even you can get.

    Here is yet another mistake you're making. One in fact, that damns your own point of view. THERE IS NO AMERICAN SOCCER PYRAMID THAT INCLUDES THE MLS ! The USL was a professional league which incorporated a pyramid system but not Major League Soccer. All the MLS is, is the recognized premier football league in the United States.

    So in theory (which is all of you've got) your massive army of "we want this" could go out and simply say NO, the MLS is NOT the permier league. You could battle them for tv/ad/sponsor money. You could put together a league (just like the USL did) that had a proper pyramid with pro/rel and all the other nice shiny things you feel are "appropriate." There is absolutely nothing holding you back from that. There is also nothing holding you back from taking over the spot of "premier" league in the United States because there is no pyramid you'd have to ascend. Just make a product that better suits the people, and if they people agree you'll get your "premier" status. It really is that easy in American culture.

    What gentlemen's agreement ? Reality check #247 for you ... those went out the window long ago. Aside from that, you've once again stated a falsehood. The MLS has reigned in nobody. The outside clubs WANT IN ... they APPLY for inclusion in the league. Where there reallly the successes and the support that you claim there is, they'd stay independent or in their open system.

    In your Utopian society you may well be able to simply talk something into being fact. In the society we live in here in the US, in the real world, the world that actually exists business is done certain ways for certain reasons. The society that the MLS (and other sports in this country) resides in defines how it is run. That is a fact, not an opinion or not my imagination.

    And for the last time. Quit acting like, and thinking you know what I do/don't like. When I want you to have my actual opinion on anything I'll make sure to cram it down your pie hole.

    We just got our Ironic Moment of the Year right there. If it wasn't so damned funny I'd be kind of pissed that you actually told me (or anyone for that matter) to please "stop bending the argument." Or you ********ing serious ? I mean, you can't be. All you do is spin the absolutely nothing you've put out.

    Outside of that, pro/rel in the USL wasn't experimental. It was there, but all but 2 (I believe it was 2) clubs were ever able to actually accept the promotion because it wasn't fiscally viable for the club. See, that is something you could discuss in regards to the how of your plan ... if there actually was one.

    You never had one. Ever. Still don't, and can't think of anything on the fly. You've failed at every juncture to discuss or argue your point because it doesn't exist outside of the fact that you like the open pro/rel model. That's it. Unfortunately for you you're trying to turn an opinion into a factual discussion with substance. That doesn't work.

    We aren't using a European designed pyramid. We aren't using a pyramid at all. The "American Soccery Pyramid" is nothing more than a listing on paper that would show an outsider what league is considered the best and then on down to the worst. It isn't formulated on what you know as a proper pyramid and it never was.

    No, what's that simple is you addressing the issue. MLS is actually structured NOT to go bankrupt. Sure, under your opined premise of just going "poof" yeah it'd probably shit the bed. However, that's exactly why I've asked you over and over and over again HOW would the league make this transaction ? WHY would the current owners ever agree to it ? WHAT is the incentive for taking on this risk for the current teams ? I'll leave it at those to try and make this as easy as possible for you. Well, except for this .... who in the blue hell are you to tell someone how they should run their league ? Who in the blue hell are you to say that your opinion actually holds precedense over how major organizations are run ? Unless that's you there Mr Obama, the answer to those questions is nobody.

    And just because I'm sure you've missed it above in the reply .... The MLS does not operate in your pyramid scheme. It is an individual league INDEPENDENT of any other that operates as a single entity. There is no correlation, cooperation, or anything with any other league or tier.

    THAT'S THE ********ING ANSWER WE WANT FROM YOU ! ! ! ! Holy shit. YOU are the one that is all for this .... this is the answer that YOU must come up with !

    The same as it is to be a supporter of every other major professional league in the United States. ********ing fantastic.
     
  19. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    BWHAHAHAHAAAAAA Oh this is rich:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/news/story?id=4922184

     
  20. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The world is on your ignore list. Saying pro/rel is never going to happen conveniently removes you from the need to have an opinion.
     
  21. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  22. pdog93

    pdog93 New Member

    Jan 18, 2010
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    the reason the 2 conference winners meet is so that one of them is guaranteed to be in mls cup final and it adds more importance to the regular season
     
  23. pdog93

    pdog93 New Member

    Jan 18, 2010
    Club:
    Aberdeen FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    1. wouldn't we want the top 2 teams to meet in the final???? having them play beorehand, while a 2nd or 3rd place team is guaranteed a spot in the final is backwards.

    it means that one of them is guaranteed to be in mls cup final and the other one gets a second chance of reaching it
     
  24. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you think that just because you have all unpaid positions that it makes you a nonprofit, you are sorely mistaken and should not be advocating anything.

    Here's another lesson: most advocacy groups are non-profits, many as a 501c3 or 501c4 depending on what they do with their money. How do you think they get money? Most people give donations that they know are tax-deductible since they are giving to a registered non-profit. The non-profit also has to register in all states that they do business or advocacy in, so it looks like you'd pretty much have to file in every single state since you have this whole organization of people lined up.

    Political campaigns also have to register (usually as a 529) and they have to detail where ALL of their money goes, whether it be to advertising, lobbying, salaries, etc. Every single dollar must be accounted for because it's not a tax-deductible donation.
     
  25. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And in order to lobby Congress, you have to register with the government as a lobbyist...
     

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