promotion and relegation*

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by MetroZebra, Jul 27, 2002.

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  1. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you knew anything about the history of sport in the United States (baseball as the most ready example) you'd know that the open model was abandoned because the leagues couldn't sustain. Your century of failure includes open league models that shit the bed. In fact, with baseball the entire reason the closed system was formed was because the open system killed off several "major" leagues that tried to compete with each other. For the betterment and survival of the sport, it came together under a closed type of system. Unbelievable isn't it ...

    Again, you make the mistake of thinking you know what my actual opinion is. I haven't once given it too you. My entire part in this discussion with you has been laying out how it works here, NOT how I feel about it. Simple principles of the matter you don't grasp or simply refuse to accept are what I've been discussing. I know what your opinion is, which is exactly why I've continually put forth how things are, regardless of my personal thoughts on the subject.

    Seriously, the Qwest half open crap is a flat out joke. If you want to place the blame where it belongs rather than flat out incorrectly stamp it on the league ... look to your supposed throng of soccer fans. Their demand for the tickets is what helped decide that cap.

    In a way, there are only a fixed number of sports fans. At any given time you're only going to have so many people with the ability and availability to be as such. Sport is a competitive market on and off the field. Soccer is in direct competition with other sports in this nation (unlike all of those other countries you claim the open system model successes). In order for the league to gain an audience (live or television) YES, they do have to take them from somewhere else. What, you think people that don't give a shit about sports are all of a sudden going to fall in love with soccer because of pro/rel and an open system ?
     
  2. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fans see them as major league because MLS markets as major league. USL could do that, and haven't, despite your panacea of an "open" system. Why?

    And why didn't it work in 1995, before MLS came along. They were an "open" system then, and soccer got less notice than it does now with MLS. Why?

    Face it. No matter what you say, the facts prove you wrong. USL is, and has been, an "open" system. And yet it had completely and utterly failed to developed the amazing soccer league you say can happen with an "open" system. MLS shows up with its "closed" system, and in 14 years is further than any other league has even been in American history.

    Those are facts you can not deny with a straight face. They prove your ideas completely and utterly wrong at this moment. The fact that you refuse to accept the facts means you're a crank and a loon, or a con artist trying to bilk soccer fans out of money. You choose.
     
  3. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, this blogging sure is making me rich. This is just about the most ludicrous line of defense. If Div 1 status doesn't matter to MLS - they should give it up, and operate as a real, honest to goodness American closed league. Stop hijacking a system that was built to produce the greatest clubs possible in order to turn it into your own personal parity party.
     
  4. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So if having an "open" league is so amazing, why didn't one pop up before MLS? Why didn't an open league appear after the collapse of the NASL to capitalize on this trillion dollar track record?
     
  5. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    You could remove the cap completely, but without that Abramovich coming in and being willing to pay way over the odds for players, MLS doesn't get anywhere near the top clubs.

    MLS is held back by a lack of interest in the game overall, not the standard of play. The majority of the population wouldn't even know the difference, having never watched either. They wouldn't suddenly become interested if the standard rose.
     
  6. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks for keepin' it real. Yeah, duh, I know there hasn't been an open league success in the USA. This of course, assumes that your definition of "open", one that doesn't include pro/rel, is actually wrong.

    Of course, never mind the fact that it hasn't been tried on a major American sport before.


    It's like talking to NBC execs in the 1980s about the coming of reality TV.
    Yes, I know, Family Ties is the model of success, closely followed by Dallas and Falcon Crest. There's no way that foreign reality crap could ever catch on here.

    Speaking of questions that never get answered:

    Name another team in a major sport that capped season ticket sales three months out and with a stadium half empty.

    You know as well as anyone in here that this decision had everything to do with reigning in Seattle to the growth curve, not embarrassing the MLS mid size stadium building program, and basically sticking with the entire stated theme of the league:

    Parity.

    Who would be embarrassed more than the Hunts and the Krafts if Seattle averaged three times as many fans? Not only would it put their teams to shame, it would also bring to fore the whole argument: Promoted clubs excite fan bases - even when the promotions are mock.

    You need evidence of the success of promotion as an AMERICAN marketing tool - I give you the Sounders and the Timbers.

    They're still trying to sell their quota of season tickets in the city of bro love, no? Let's see how the Union match up.
     
  7. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even with sellouts defined as selling half the stadium, Seattle averaged more fans last year than Fulham, Bolton, and a host of other Prem clubs. Why can't this support translate into a Prem level club? Because MLS says so.

    Again - American interest in the game is strong by so many benchmarks, which I know you've heard me repeat. It's interest in the club game that is sorely lacking.
     
  8. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lots of reasons.

    American sports owners were gifted the closed league by an act of Congress in the 1920s, and today still expect those basic entitlements.

    There wasn't a defined pyramid until the 1990s - only after USSF promised FIFA they'd build one in order to land the '94 Cup.

    In 1986, after the collapse of NASL, there were only three American outdoor pro clubs left - the lowest number since the early 1900s.

    Travel concerns were legit pre-war.

    American television execs couldn't figure out how to mesh with the game.

    One false reason: Americans don't get pro/rel. US fans may be accustomed to the closed league, but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate the meritocracy of the open league.
     
  9. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    No, it isn't false, it's just new. For most of English football's existence, it was either impossible to grow one's club through chronic over spending, or at least there was another way to do it.

    For its first 80 years, England effectively had a salary cap. Technically, it was an individual wage cap, but it was so low that it functioned as a team cap. (Walter Bahr, whose shot was deflected by Joe Gaetjens in the 1950 World Cup match against England, was subsequently offered a contract at Manchester United, but he was making more money as a school teacher/weekend player in the United States than the maximum salary.) And of course there was no free agency until the Bosman ruling in the mid-90s.

    That didn't prevent bigger clubs from staying better off transfers, but at least there was a better option than chronic overspending until a) the Premiership sealed itself off from the rest of English football, b) the aforementioned Bosman ruling meant guys could leave for free, and c) escalating Champions League revenue coming in from outside England, and flowing mainly to the clubs that were bigger to begin with, exacerbating differences.

    These combined to create the semi-permanent over/underclass that exists in England today. And that over/underclass is what creates the temptation to break it the only way one can--with the applications of, at least in a short-term sense, seemingly irrational amounts of money. When clubs do this, you shouldn't confuse stupid for desperate.

    I say 'short term' and 'seemingly' because the difference between over and underclass are so great that the financial rewards of the former may, in the longer run, justify themselves (where they likely would not have before you had so much money coming in from outside the system).
     
  10. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Japan has considerably more baseball than soccer tradition, and yet the relatively recent introduction of promotion and relegation has not crashed the system.

    And besides Japan, how many other data points are there? Where has a promotion and relegation soccer league 'failed'?
     
  11. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Then again, the NASL was more 'open' than any system being advocated here--anyone who wanted to compete basically could, the 'fee' was thoroughly trivial.
     
  12. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    the same reason an NBA team getting 6,000 fans a game (Grizzles for instance) can make more money than a soccer team averaging 16,000, 26,000, or 36,000 and that is...sponsors and tv deals. IF ESPN put a few more zeros at the end of their checks like they do for the NBA, the league/single entity/parity/mcsoccer/billionares club could put a zero on the end of the current salary cap, and well then things would get very interesting. But it turns out that businesses take time to develop. Thanks to the fact that McSoccer was able to invest hundreds of millions of their own dollars at a loss, that business is growing. They reportedly lost 350M in starting this league. It is growing and media/sponsorship deals went from losses to gains. While it may not be enough for some, and the American mentality wants quick fixes, it just won't happen. Bring Bolton or Fulham to Columbus or Chicago and they draw...well about the same to tell you the truth. And ESPN would probably pay about the same to have them on their channel. The global game is defined by superclubs, and we don't have any (just like most countries). So we have lots of americans who assume that US superclubs are only one magic button away. Press it, and all the talent/investment/support just comes flooding in. Well, sorry but the leagues we admire took 100+ years to become what they are. We are probably going to need the same. If you don't want to help build then turn the channel, but don't insult people who support their clubs. Go on the boards of other US leagues/independent clubs and help them build. And stop with this nonsense about conspiracies to cap Sounders attendance. We have revenue sharing, which was set up specifically for this reason. So when one club gets big, the money is spread around. There is no owner in this league that doesn't love to see packed stadiums anywhere in MLS.

    And please stop asking what 'open' leagues went bankrupt after hearing dozens of 'open' clubs that went bankrupt. No system is magic. Just because you have population+football interest+free market that an 'open' league will create incredible support/talent/investment. It is a fantasy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_(India)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Jia-A_League
     
  13. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NASL got it almost right. Everything but pro/rel, which they can't be blamed for, since ASL II was the only thing beneath/besides them.

    MLS was built with these failures in mind. In order to get soccer to survive at any level in a closed league, it would require intensive top down management.

    So here we are. A league with no ambitions beyond domestic survival and feeder league status, clinging to an incompatible model, desperately reigning in any club that smells like Cosmos.

    Sounders were poised to draw more fans than the Seahawks. That would have made them the first club since the Cosmos to do that to their NFL counterpart. Still might happen, but interesting that the Seahawk alums helped put the kibosh on it by capping season tix and refusing to open up the entire stadium.

    Conspiracy or coincidence, creepy.
     
  14. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On and on with the comparisons to India and China, developing countries with few similarities to the USA in terms of professional sports. And nothing here about failed open leagues.

    Nice try.

    It's not magic. It's got a record. In western society, even.
     
  15. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So in other words the American sports culture has led us to the "closed" system model, because it works with American culture. I'm glad you've finally realized the point everyone's been making to you for the last 30+ pages.
     
  16. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Couple more comments:

    Columbus and Chicago might not be able to support first div clubs. Let's see, instead of letting weaker clubs drag down the quality of play of the top clubs.

    Here's what I detest. MLS supporters with the nerve to tell me to go and support lower division clubs, and leave their first div entitlement alone. And all the nonsense about the millions they invested. Your little single entity has deprived lower div clubs of the incentive.

    Thanks. Now that everything is hunky dory, either stop wasting space at the top of the pyramid with your parity party, move out and form your own outlaw league, and let passionate owners push the American soccer envelope. It's much better drama than watching your MLS crew push the corporate envelope.

    I know, it's gotta stay in the incubator. MLS SAVED soccer. They BOUGHT first div status with franchise fees.

    In exchange, no American club will ever be free to pursue their own destiny, whether that's in Mussel Shoals, Mexico City, Manchester, or Madrid.

    That's a horrible deal, perpetrated by owners for which soccer is not their top priority. For them, it's just an easy calculation: Soccer is coming. Lets use it to funnel money into our empires, while exposing ourselves to as little risk as possible. And gosh darn it, we have to force it into our closed league system, or it's just too darn scary.

    And then - we have to wait a century. For what? Seattle is getting world class support TODAY.

    We've already waited a century for them to realize that there's something about their domestically focused closed league model, for domestic sports, that just don't fly in a planetary, open sport like soccer.
     
  17. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looks to me like five or six keep insisting I'm wrong. Not only is that an unscientific sample, it's hardly representative.

    Reality TV wasn't cultural a decade ago. Reality sports isn't cultural today.

    Kick, scream and fight. Americans get it. Cling to your entitlements. Call people who suggest a proven model crazy. Support billionaire rights over supporter rights. Short Bus Soccer is lame.
     
  18. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You "detest" MLS supporters who "tell you to go and support a lower league team" and yet you come and tell us how we should like our soccer and discount/ignore every single thing we have ever posted that discredits you. You call us kindergardeners and insult our intelligence. You don't need to tell me how I should like my sport and my teams.
     
  19. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can't think of any leagues that failed, but promotion/relegation failed in Korea. The league is still around, but promotion/relegation ended.
     
  20. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you know there hasn't been a success in the United States yet you tout it as the way to go. Allow me to move so I don't get hit by your head hitting the brick wall.

    Oh wait, you mean no American sport ... like the very annotated version of BASEBALL that I gave you ... the one that couldn't keep itself in a sustainable environment under an open system and thusly converted to a closed one in order for the game to survive ? You want people to listen to you but flat out refuse to read what they write (or ignore it). Fantastic.

    And how long did that take ? How many decades of tv in the United States before the audience would allow for that kind of programming ? We're talking about the here/now of it, NOT the future. Myself and a couple of other posters just got done talking about it being possible in the future. I'm sure in your attentive reading of others' points you somehow managed to miss that as well.

    Go back and addresse the 9 of every 10 that you skip and get back to me.

    Why ? It isn't relevent to anything to do with pro/rel and an open system.

    No. Why do ignore the actual reason why the season tickets were capped ? Are you really so misguided that you can't see the truth of it, or so flippant in your views that you can't allow yourself to admit a point that completely invalidates something you're talking about. Here's a link for you (although you won't read it, and even if you do you'll simply ignore the FACTS it provides):

    http://blog.seattlepi.com/sounders/archives/192482.asp

    The reasons for the capping of season ticket sales has absolutely nothing to do with your fanatical consipracy theories. The TRUTHS are much easier to comprehend.

    Oh, you mean the promotions that aren't promotions at all or anything remotely close to that. You mean the two teams that said "******** this" to the USL and the open model and PAID to get into the MLS and that horrible system they run ? Gotcha.

    Hey, now look at that. They haven't sold 'em all yet ? Wonder what that could be all about ? I dunno, maybe the LACK of overall "soccernation-ness" you feel exists here. You want the perfect example of what people are talking about .... Philly is it. A riotous sports market (that loves soccer mind you) that is still trying to sell out the season tickets. That doesn't help you at all.

    No, because that simply isn't how it works. Fans in the stand doesn't equate to a top tier level club. You're REALLY flinging shit hoping it'll stick now. You're also absurdly basing that one year one. You actually think that support of the fans equals a top tier club ? Ask Newcastle about that.

    You've repeated a bunch of shit, 99% of which was exactly that, shit. But wait, wait wait wait ..... YOU JUST SAID WHAT WE'RE TELLING YOU ! HOLY SHIT ! The interest in the club game is sorely lacking ! WTF ? If you understand that, how the ******** can you not connect the dots ?!

    Except baseball already had done that in 1902. The NBA didn't exist until 1946, the NFL began in 1920 when several independent leagues all came together, and the NHL didn't really get going in the USA until the late 60s' when the WHL was set to declare itself a major league and challenge for the Stanley Cup.

    None of that has anything to do with Congress in the 20's. In fact, wtf are you talking about ?

    Ah so the collapse of the open system literally killed pro soccer in the US. Thanks for admitting it.

    Got one other than Japan ?

    And the point of competition still stands. Sure, Baseball is king there but what else is at that level other than soccer ?

    We're also talking about soccer which was professional in Japan as far back as 1965. We're almost at the half century mark there. It also took Japan 34 years to institute pro/rel. I and others have said that pro/rel is a future endeavor, not a present one. They bought the teams from another league to incorporate the pro/rel. The MLS isn't anywhere near that yet.

    The statement was also tongue in cheek to one he keeps repeating. Where else in the world is soccer NOT at the top of the pyramid of popularity ? That's the point. It's easy to show examples of the open system success when you're talking about a sport that is the most popular in every country that plays it, except for the one he wants to change.

    You're actually saying that it would have worked with everything else being the same ... just with pro/rel. Wow.
     
  21. Ganapper

    Ganapper Member

    Apr 5, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    This is so incredibly false that its hard to tell if you are just full of crap or being hyperbolic.
     
  22. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he's being an idiot and counting total fans over the entire season instead of the average # of fans per game.
     
  23. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would like to know why it is fair to compare US soccer clubs of the 1920s and leagues in europe with 1/10th of the size and 1/10th of the traveling distance to MLS but comparing leagues that failed in India and China has absolute no relevance.

    I would like for you to comment on this, I would like to know how naive you actually are. The truth is that these leagues do show that an open system won't be a guaranteed success just because it is open. There are more factors involved. You are saying nothing matters, open it up and it will be England. Well, there are 100s of countries with open systems and only a few are truly financially prosperous. And others with big economies, populations, and media still failed despite being open. This is a fact.

    But beyond this, you are a troll. By definition, and I don't know why you have not been stopped by the moderators of this page. This is a thread under MLS. This is a thread about ideas for making this league better, what we as fans would do if we ran this league. That is not what you are posting about. You are posting about an end to this league. There is a difference. There would be NO difference from me posting on a board for Chelsea saying that the way to improve the team is to just destroy it and start a new club simply because I don't like them. I am not saying that this thread can not be started, but not here. There are threads for Soccer in the US that you can talk to people about this stuff. Your 'reform' has nothing to do with MLS, it has everything to do with the end of MLS. If your reform ever happens it would happen outside of MLS, we all know this. So go gather your support there, and just go away.

    It is unfortunate that the moderators haven't done something already. Let this guy post where ever he wants, but not on MLS. If the guy doesn't want this league, then fine but don't come on our boards and tell us that our league is crap, we are all paid bloggers, and that this league needs to end. This isn't the place, and if anyone was going on club forums and claiming the clubs need to be shut down they would be carded. You need to see that implementing a pro/rel system into MLS somehow is different than setting up completely different league systems and ending MLS. This is not the place to talk about ENDING MLS it is a place to talk about IMPROVING MLS. You have let the troll hijack the thread and we can't even have reasonable debates about how to improve the league with a possible pro/rel system that still fits without our model. We have to hear how stupid/brainwashed we are unless we accept an end to MLS (oh and pay him). Come on guys, step up and do something about this. I know the pro/rel threads can get crazy but this soccerreform guy needs to be redirected off MLS threads unless he has actual suggestions about the league and not just ending it.
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well that's a safe bet. ;)
     
  25. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Fair enough. . . current score 1-1. Who will find the match-winner?

    EDIT, and consulting the wiki gawdz:

    It appears that reason (none of the second division clubs would accept promotion) would be relevant here in the US too as of right now. Other than the teams already headed here, if you had a decent set of restrictions in place (minimum attendance/revenues/stadium size/entry fee/what have you) it seems to me that only Montreal would make that effort.
     

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