promotion and relegation*

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by MetroZebra, Jul 27, 2002.

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  1. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My DETROIT LIONS sold out every game until last year. The LIONS! If fan supported yielded better teams, we'd have 20 Super Bowls by now.
     
  2. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    and as i have asked before- if I make a donation, where is my money going?

    Thanks in advance for the feedback, so I can know if I want to help support your cause.
     
  3. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    See the flaw here is that while EVERY league in Europe has pro/rel, most of them are still crap leagues that cannot compete with the big teams from Spain, Italy, England, France.

    Why- cause they don't have the money or the support. There are plenty of leagues in Europe where a good draw is 10,000, and the teams, even the most successful still bring in pennies on the dollar compared to EPL clubs.


    The way to "save" soccer in America has a lot more to do with opening up the checkbooks, and freeing up the system than it does pro/rel.

    I am not completely opposed to some of the ideas that soccerreform has, I just think that a lot of them can be accomplished without pro/rel.

    Our salary cap of roughly $2.5 Mill is a joke, and the 1 DP per team is a bigger joke.

    Loosen up the salary cap, let the teams that want to invest and have the means do so. Let the other teams flounder. We don't need pro/rel for this.

    I am a proud clevelander, and look at the drastic difference between 2 of my clubs.

    The NBA Cavs, spend and invest. Yes it helps to have a top draw, but they have spent the money around him, and in turn have a highly competitive club that draws well.

    the MLB Indians are way to cost concious. They worry about what attandence will be and spend accordingly. Not realizing that a better product might incrase attandance. They are considered the biggest joke of the 3 Major teams we have.


    I agree- do away with the cap,or at least greatly increase it. let teams spend and earn as the free market allows, and bring in better quality. This will improve the league a lot more than pro/rel ever could.
     
  4. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    you'd have only 10. My browns would be have split them with you.:D:D
     
  5. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [threadjack] You really think you coulda stopped Barry Sanders? Not a chance! ;) [/threadjack]
     
  6. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why should we just sit back, when technically, all we need is an independent President of US Soccer to wave his pen? Maybe one who isn't on Robert Kraft's payroll?

    No, it can't be done that fast, but I think we've got a great transition plan that will leave the second division (whatever name it takes) in better position than MLS is today by the time the first MLS (or whatever name our first division takes) club is exposed to the perils of relegation. Indeed, they will be relegated into a better league, whose promotion battles will have likely gotten better ratings than the pitiful ones MLS enjoys today.

    Yes, we know, the current MLS owners will never go for it. Once you allow a monopoly to form, entitle them to permanent first div status, you're going to have to be ready to pry it out some of their cold dead hands.

    In order to get this league formed by the 1994 World Cup, so many concessions were given to billionaires who viewed soccer as a sidelight to their other businesses. Club autonomy is at the top of that list. It has left us with an exhibition league, where mediocrity is enforced to produce parity.

    How to change the situation? Join together with other supporters, outline to the press, MLS owners, and US Soccer that there is a silent majority of supporters waiting for MLS to get real. www.soccerreform.us.

    It really can't get much worse. Twenty five times more people, on average, are watching pro wrestling than MLS. This in a country in which more people watched World Cup Matches than either World Series or NBA Finals games in 2006.

    Hate to sound like a broken record, but we can't let these guys define our club soccer anymore. It may work for the billionaire owners, but it doesn't work for the majority of American soccer supporters. We deserve so much more.

    Stick a fork in the closed league model that owners of other pro sports have been trying to jam our club soccer in since 1894, I say. It's only failed virtually every time since then.
     
  7. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's freakin sad that most americans watch wrestling over soccer.:eek: and it's not even a sport. My friend once told me that back in the day WWF came to some eastern european country for a exhibition and every spectator just got up and laughed and left the stadium. Wrestling never came back.
     
  8. newcastle1

    newcastle1 New Member

    Sep 29, 2007
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. I'm not a big fan of MLS owning the rights to everything and clubs having to do whatever the league says. The cap needs to be raised, then allow the individual clubs to do what they want as far as buying/selling players, sponsors, contracts, marketing, etc. goes. Owners and investors are looking for a return/profit on their money, so they are going to do whatever is necessary to achieve that.

    Pro/rel will not work in the U.S. until soccer becomes at least as popular as one of the other big 3/4 sports here. MLS can't afford that system, literally; the money isn't there.

    I'd much rather see a single table first, but that's for another forum.
     
  9. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's weird because a lot of youngsters play soccer in the U.S., but then it gets faded out in high school. of course we can't compare Europe to U.S. becaues in europe soccer is a working class sport with wide acceptance, here it's NFL. but the most "european-type" cities like Seattle, Toronto, etc.. accept soccer.
     
  10. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First off, thanks for reading. Secondly, can you name an open soccer league anywhere in the world that has gone bankrupt?

    SUM doesn't need to go anywhere. They have a plumb in owning the rights to market what may be the most popular national team in the USA - Mexico.

    I am not going to reform anything. We are.

    It could happen in three years, once the transition starts. Hey, your boy Garber gives lip service to promotion and relegation every time he appears in the NYT.

    Funny thing is, I can't seem to recall an entitled monopoly like MLS ever breaking up on it's own - so at least you can admit that all that talk of promotion and relegation down the road is indeed, just a pile of crap.

    Yes, investors will jump at the chance to form unlimited clubs, especially when the cord is cut to the franchise fees that keep our single entity exhibition league afloat.

    Opportunities abound. That's why your NFL boys got involved in the first place, and bottled soccer up into the NASL in the late sixties. They saw how many Americans watched the '66 Cup, and wanted a piece of the action.... and they were running it perfectly fine as a small sidelight to their other sports, until a guy name Steve Ross came along and brought the sport out of a forty year slumber, made it the most popular youth sport in the country, and forced them to spend money on it.

    Well, it's been another forty years, and some of the same families are involved, and despite the huge growth in the sport itself, MLS is getting lower average TV ratings than NASL did in 1980. Average attendance records are as old as the league. The reincarnation of storied NASL franchises provides the latest lifeline - but how long until their fans wise up and realize that MLS owns 51% of their club, and that their world class support cannot be directly converted into club improvements?

    Really no need for a magic wand. There's a business model out there that made soccer the sport of the planet earth. What scares MLS and other American sports owners the most about it?

    If it worked.
     
  11. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you think MLS will ever willingly divest out of the entitled monopoly that is the single entity, I want some of whatever you're smoking.
     
  12. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I'm personally not into the pro-wrestling thing at all, but it's basically a stunt show just like any other show that has some entertainment value for some people.
     
  13. newcastle1

    newcastle1 New Member

    Sep 29, 2007
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think if MLS ever got rid of the single entity I would START smoking. Garber and the league needs to start listening to the core fan base instead of trying to appeal to "the general sports fan". Part of hockey's popularity is the allowing of fist fights on the ice. What other organized sport allows this? None, making hockey unique in that way. Soccer is different from other sports, keep it that way.
     
  14. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    That site's agenda should strictly be about supporting pro/rel, not about supporting particular league format(ie single table). I support pro/rel, but also in favor of two tables with playoffs rather than single table with or without playoffs.
     
  15. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    U.S. is too big of a country to not have pro/rel, but in 10 years time.

    Play-offs are good only if it's a two game play-off and the final is two games home and away, that's fair.

    I think the Galaxy would be the champions if that happened.
     
  16. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Promotion and relegation can't fix all bad owners. Then again, neither can the closed league... Detroit Lions, LA Clippers, Chicago Cubs and so on...

    Of course, we can stick with the system that snags 1 viewer for every 25 pro wrestling viewers on cable. That's pretty cool.
     
  17. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Please stop with your 1 viewer compard to 25 for pro wrestling. It's apples vs. oranges.

    Pro wrestling outdraws about every regular season sporting event other than Football. Who Cares?

    instead of repeating the same stat over and over again - please tell me IF I CONTRIBUTE TO YOUR SITE, WHAT DOES MY MONEY GO FOR????

    your non-willingness to answer this makes me think you are just pocketing the money.
     
  18. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    probably to pay for the server.
     
  19. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you're not embarrassed that pro wrestling is crushing (not just beating) a league that plays the most popular youth sport in the country, whose international matches draw more viewers than some of our most popular sports - I'm stumped.

    OUR organization is devoted to spreading the word that promotion, relegation and independent clubs are core elements of great club soccer, and how implementing them will usher in a new American soccer century. We sponsor meetups, advertising and coalition building efforts that will show "them" that we are ready for real club soccer that includes these core elements.

    We encourage the majority of American soccer supporters who don't support MLS not to let the enforced mediocrity of their single entity taint their views on the potential of American club soccer, and instead join together to wrest control away from their entitled monopoly.

    Get the Gist?

    Thanks for asking - how much do you plan to contribute today, fine sir?
     
  20. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i wish someone could do some research on soccerfans in this country, but probably most have a college education, that's why soccer isn't popular in the States.;)
     
  21. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    come now Mr. White Star, you really think MLS is just going to expose their crap shoot system of enforced mediocrity to any kind of relegation? They own first division soccer. It was traded to them by Alan Rothenberg and company in order to get the best backed closed league formed, if not playing, per FIFAs conditions to host the 94 World Cup.

    They paid their franchise fees to keep the ship afloat - and to protect themselves from the mere mention of relegation.

    These kind of entitled monopolies don't divest by themselves.
     
  22. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/2610
     
  23. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's worse than than, Geordie. These guys are so paranoid that soccer arrives and pulls fans from their other sports, they are actively trying to cultivate a fan base that doesn't overlap.

    Like I said, the biggest fear of the typical American sports owner is that promotion and relegation works. Even their staunch supporters in this chat will acknowledge that they have no intentions whatsoever to relinquish one iota of power and control, no matter how much money they make.
     
  24. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think you understood what CleveGuyOH was saying...wrestling's ratings beat EVERYBODY! It even beats most NFL games every week, with the exception of playoffs. Yet, no one would EVER compare wrestling's ratings to a sport. They are two different forms of entertainment. Sure it's sports entertainment, but the emphasis has always been on the entertainment, not the sport.

    Nor is it easy to compare other sports to MLS. The NFL has been around for decades. MLB is over 100 years old. The NBA has been around for decades and it's a sport (basketball) that WE created. The NHL has been around for a century. MLS is entering its 16th season. These things take time, and pro/rel will not help MLS increase ratings, revenues or fans.

    To take an example, if we had pro/rel 2 seasons ago, Beckham and the LA Galaxy would not be in MLS. Do you really think TV would go for that? The world's most recognizable soccer star in America playing against the likes of the Rochester Rhinos or the Charleston Battery (no offense to those teams)? No, TV wants LA facing NY, DC, Houston, New England, Chicago, and bringing in all that money in the form of friendlies against European powers and selling shirts. They do not want to pay money to feature a league with David Beckham in it and find out that his team got dropped in place of Rochester.
     
  25. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    you seem like a nice guy who just have a bit of a selective memory and a heavy dose of wishful thinking. which I don't think is a bad thing, there is a difference between having wishful thinking/selective memory than just being nuts. Some people on these boards seem nuts, and I will start out by saying you are probably not one of those people.

    OK, so we agree than MLS will never agree to break itself up unless there was some buy out or an agreement that would make the owners more money than staying together. Lets say some Dubai billionaire doesn't want to play with an EPL team, he wants to buy a whole pyramid in America...well anything short of that kind of situation, MLS is just not going to break itself up. You have some wishful thinking that below the surface is millions of american soccer fans ready to support division 2, 3, and 4 clubs and 100+ investors willing to dump a billion dollars into minor league soccer, and the only thing stopping it is a online campaign. Well I think you are wrong, but have at it. But if you are going to take people's money, you better make it very clear what you plan to use that money for.

    But let me break down why I think you might be a bit 'limited' in your concept of reality.

    1. you suggest that what is holding MLS back is an open system, this system is proven around the world and is the reason for the beautiful game to strive at levels MLS can not reach with its forced parity system. But is that actually true? FIFA has over 200 nations with pro/rel and open pyramid system in most of these nations, yet why are we so far ahead of ALMOST all of them besides the super leagues. Yes. Let me explain. Even in europe, in developed nations with soccer being the biggest sport you have nations that lag in our support today even with an open system pro/rel. Today MLS draws 16k a game, yet you only see 10k average in Portugal, 15k average in Scotland, 11k in Switzerland, 8k in Sweden, 8k in Ukraine, and 7k in Greece. These are some of the best leagues outside the top 6-8 leagues in europe. There are 53 first divisions, I didn't even both cherry picking with the Wales first division or the Cyprus. Where both the attendace and clubs values are extremely small compared to MLS. Keep going around the world, and look at global numbers out of the 200+ first division and countless 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th divisions (probably 700+ global leagues) MLS in quality, fan support, and franchise value would sit somewhere in the top 30, all this in 14 years. This is easily within the top 5% of leagues in the entire world maybe even higher near the top. Hundreds of these league are totally open and have complete pro/rel. The point is to believe that all a pyramid needs to to be open and implement pro/rel and you will see unequaled growth is a lie.

    The reason is quality not quantity. The reason we all watch the best 5-6 leagues in the world is because we all want to see the best in the world. You can not be a fan of something and not be interested in seeing the best. It would be like an art lover not interested in going to world class art museums and only want to watch art produced in his/her hometown. These fictional pyramid like MLS will always need to compete on a global market, the fans in MLS want to see great soccer not just something in their home town. How do I know this? Because we already have the NPSL and Pacific Coast Soccer League and PDL and Cosmopolitan Soccer League. Forget about the fact that 99% of clubs that have ever joined our D2 has either self relegated or went under, below that support for our 3rd or 4th divisions are non existent. Every single major city in the US has both a) soccer fans and b) some kind of smaller soccer club. Why don't you see people out there supporting their smaller clubs, because they have no chance of MLS? Are you kidding? You really think the only reason why Brooklyn Italians have zero attendance is because their 4th division is closed to MLS and not open? So when if tomorrow it became true that SOMEDAY they COULD move up to MLS if they win every league above them, all of a sudden tickets will begin to sell out. That fans of international leagues will turn away and begin to support their minor league clubs, sponsors will line up because they maybe could someday get in? This is a fantasy.

    The truth is that we are growing at an incredible rate. Franchise values are up 400% in 5 years. We finally have a national TV contract, we are going to reach 20 markets and probably more after that. Close to a billion have been spent or will be spent on infrastructure and stadiums, all this with a very small salary cap. Once we begin to make more money and we allow individual clubs to start spending more of its own revenue, we will see improvements in quality, we will see more clubs, more stadiums, more sponsors, overall people will start coming because the league itself is better. That is the plan, it is a slow one and I think it is a bit too conservative for all of us, but it is at least realistic.
     

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