Review: State of the Forum Poll - Red Bull Forum

Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by Thomas A Fina, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most of the complaints here seem to be an accurate reflection of the problems the fan base is facing and therefore I am not sure how much of at I want to change. The ownership is a massively divisive presence like it or not and yes, how they act is THE central point to the future of this franchise and one I would rather not hide if I can at all avoid it. However I will discuss the prospect of a Beat the Dead Horse forum with others and see what they have to say.

    and yes, as long as a really bad player is getting playing time* and as long as a position of playmaker still has not been properly filled after three/four years the posts will tend to repeat themselves.

    *If you really wanted a dead horse beaten, try the original Junior Bradley debates that took place on this board.


    Two other points that need covering :

    1) I will state that you can criticize the ideas forcefully, but criticizing the posters** will be frowned upon and pruned and if I have to repeat warnings, I will start dealing cards much against my will (I'll admit I haven't been nearly pro-active enough with the pruning). You are all big boys, I think you can handle this.

    **players and management are, of course, fair game as always.

    2) I think my definition of trolling as probably a little different than most of you. Discussing a rather unpleasant issue is not trolling if that issue is an important one.
    I put a much greater emphasis on where the person is and back and forth arguing that I would tolerate from someone within the Red Bull family I would not tolerate from a DC/Philly/NYC2 fan. Again, as long as you keep away from personal attacks and stick to ideas I would prefer to take a laissez faire approach to modding.

    3) As far as getting more people here - admittedly we have a poor start on it for reasons dealing with the history of both the franchise and this site - part of the onus is on the ownership (again, the poor numbers here are also reflective of the current state of the franchise averaging not many butts in seats) and part is on you. If you know fellow soccer fans who aren't already on , get them to join the site. Proselytize the gospel and such
     
  2. metz

    metz Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    What more support you want, 14 miserable years of waiting in the rain, snow and sun for something to happen and what we get, GIGO.....
     
  3. RafaLarios

    RafaLarios Member+

    Oct 2, 2009
    Medellín
    Club:
    Atletico Nacional
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    ...And a place to call home. I'm not saying that there are no wrongs on the team. Believe me they have a lot of things that scream putrid FO and putrid team.

    But what I'm saying is that, even when there are positives, the people don't acknowledge them either.

    I think that there are positives looking into the future, a new stadium, a good DP with hopefully less injuries due to grass playing field, a new DP, and hopefully the team at the helm of ABMOD.
     
  4. j1mbr0wn

    j1mbr0wn Member

    Jun 3, 2005
    Newark, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FWIW - I think our current mods are doing a good job. No complaints from me in that regard.

    In fact, I think most of our complaints are about each other. :eek:
     
  5. Homebrew4U

    Homebrew4U New Member

    Jul 25, 2009
    Eastchester, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    I agree that we are better off leaving all topics open for debate. But it does, unfortunately lead to people feeling like this:

    Which leads to having to address this:

    The haters, who come onto this forum with "New York Red Bulls" listed as their supported team, but clearly hate the team, take away from the sense that this is a forum for Red Bull supporters. Viper has said to a few of them, "I'm not telling you how to support the Red Bulls, just telling you to support them." And that is missing when a select few inject into nearly every thread how much this team sucks, and claim to be doing so in order to "educate" us about the evils of ownership and management.

    Right now, the hottest topic on the board is the "Bruce Arena" thread. Yet another instance of O-sack "educating" us about how correct he is--right on the edge of trolling and baiting. Certainly, I fall on the side of the fence that says let us argue about all topics... I've gotten myself involved a couple of times... but if you're wondering about increased numbers here--bitching about a team is a sure way to disinterest genuine fans of the team. (Also, given the amount of +rep I received the first time I chose to engage Onionsack in a debate about fandom, I believe I speak for more than just myself on this.)

    Finally, leave it to the always(?;)) reasonable j1mbr0wn... in the Bruce Arena thread, he was the one to try to steer the arguments about the past to the possibility of the future (ABMOD), and of course, to make this observation:

     
  6. NYCfan

    NYCfan New Member

    Aug 25, 2006
    NYC, New York
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just a question or two if I may and not trying to pick an argument but... Can you differentiate between outright hatred of a team as opposed to supporting a team while still hating the ground that the incompetent Ownership, Management and Coaching walk on? Or are they mutually exclusive in your eyes?
     
  7. Homebrew4U

    Homebrew4U New Member

    Jul 25, 2009
    Eastchester, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can absolutely differentiate between the two. And, as I've said, being critical of management, ownership, etc, is part of being a fan. I'm not suggesting that anyone should stifle any criticism of ownership or branding or management, etc.

    I am saying that it does, nonetheless, contribute to the feelings that RafaLarios was expressing. I read his posts to say that, while he'd love to come here to find a place where he can share his passion for the team, it's nearly impossible to do so without one of the usual suspects coming along and pissing on his Cheerios. And I was suggesting that it might have something to do with discouraging some fans of making BigSoccer a regular stop.

    I do need to ask you, though, at what point does hatred of so many things about a team mean that you are *not* a supporter. There are a few posters here who seem very much to me to *not* support the Red Bulls. They seem to have a concept in their head of what a team should be--they support that imaginary concept. And then say that, since the Red Bulls are not that concept, they "support" the team by pointing out how it's not what they think it should be, over and over and over.

    I think the idea seems to be, by demanding that the team change into this concept, one is supporting the Greater Good--the ultimate goal. It's like some twisted form of "tough love." But I see that differently. I say, eventually one crosses the line where, in fact, he or she is not a supporter of the Red Bulls. They might be a supporter of soccer, or of soccer in New York (or New Jersey!). They might dream of a team they can connect to. But if that's the case, then the Red Bulls are NOT their team. They're NOT a supporter.

    I'm critical of the team; honestly, there's not been very much of late, besides RBA, to celebrate, and plenty to criticize. The difference is that I am enthusiastic about the Red Bulls--I love to go to the games; I love to root and cheer for them. I wear a Red Bull jersey, with a Red Bull logo (as opposed to a Herbalife logo, a VW logo, an XBox logo), and I cheer (and boo!) and have good times with friends and family.

    I'm capable of critical analysis of the team's woes--including ownership and branding issues. It's been a mess, and I give a lot of leeway to those who've been fans longer than me suffering plenty more disappointments and "more-of-the-same" than I have endured.

    But there IS a difference between being a disappointed SUPPORTER, and just simply not liking anything about a team, and using the excuse that, if only everything about the team was different, you could root for them. What some of the posters on this forum do, despite their rationales, doesn't rate as analytical fault-finding--it's just contempt. It's not support.

    And back to the topic--I do think that when the criticism becomes contempt, and it's hammered home every day, all the time, by the same people, it has something to do with keeping fans away from the New York Red Bulls forum at Big Soccer who are looking for, as RafaLarios said, "A place to call home." Supporters, I would think, would be encouraging other fans, inviting other friends, building excitement--even when times are tough. And someone who can't find anything to be excited or encouraged by, who has no faith--that doesn't suit my definition of supporter.

    (PS--Rafa, there ARE plenty of fans here.)
     
  8. Blue Note

    Blue Note New Member

    Nov 17, 2003
    Pawling, New York
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well stated Homebrew. That encapsulates a lot of my feelings.
     
  9. RafaLarios

    RafaLarios Member+

    Oct 2, 2009
    Medellín
    Club:
    Atletico Nacional
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    thanks for your support, it is almost like if you read my mind. I couldn't have said any better.

    I have a story. In Medellín there are 2 teams, Atletico Nacional and Deportivo Independiente Medellín. For more than 40 years DIM was at the shadow of Nacional. Nacional won cup after cup and became bigger and bigger.

    But the fans were always there, each year more critical, aech year more raged, pissed, kicking and screaming. But they were there.

    Then 2004 came. They won a championship. Not any championship, but the only final in Colombian History being contested by two teams of the same city. It was a hard fought title, and they deserved it, the team deserved it all of it. After all those years they finally saw the light.

    I'm not saying that RB should win a title after 30 years of waiting. Not in hell, what I'm saying is that the fans should be that way, always demanding, always racous, always critical, but above all, always supportive.

    And belive me, I should know. I am a Nacional fan. :p

    I don't reallly know how to support a losing team, but RedBull has given me a good school and my city has given me a picture to look.

    a few last words: There is always hope!
     
  10. viper

    viper New Member

    Jun 7, 2000
    Paramus, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unfortunately, I must spread reputation around before giving it to Homebrew4u again. Friggin great post!
     
  11. jamison

    jamison Member

    Sep 25, 2000
    NYC
    FWIW,

    We did actually ask in the starchamber for the in-active Mod to be removed back in the day, and it never really got done. But, it was asked. I asked again. I also asked to add another mod as back up, who is an RB fan, I agree that it is important to have supporters of the team be involved in helping the discussion along, which is the job of the mods.

    FWIW, the mods of the forum are RB fans, Mr. K aside, just know that there is varying levels of comfort with the corporation involved.
     
  12. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let's make a "positive discussion only" subforum for the people who don't want to deal with complaints and negativity and just want a place to express their passion for the team.
     
  13. Blue Note

    Blue Note New Member

    Nov 17, 2003
    Pawling, New York
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sounds like a great idea. Can we also have a "nattering nabobs of negativism" forum for the people on the other side of the fence who grouse about Red Bull 24/7?
     
  14. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That doesn't make any sense. I have not heard anyone who has complaints about Red Bull saying that he doesn't want to hear positive things said about Red Bull. I have not heard anyone complain that the forum has too much positivity or that positive comments should be limited. So there is no demand for a sub-forum which is only negative.

    OTOH, several people seem to want a place where they can go to express their support, without having to read certain kinds of posts which they consider a damper on their Red Bull passion. So I say, let those posters have their own sub-forum where they can do just that. Meanwhile, anyone who wants to read a variety of opinions, positive and negative, can continue to read and post in the main forum.
     
  15. Blue Note

    Blue Note New Member

    Nov 17, 2003
    Pawling, New York
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nobody's asking for that and you know it. Seems to me that people are just starting to fire back at the pervasive negativity and others are getting annoyed. About time.
     
  16. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do I?

    Actually, that is exactly what they're asking for: a place to "share passion for the team" without having one's Cheerio's pissed on. That's what I said, and you know it.

    Seems to me people fire back at what you perceive as "pervasive negativity" all the time, within the threads in the forum. This is nothing new.

    The question here is whether the negativity in question is something that the mods can or should do something about. If your problem is with other posters, then fine, address them. But when you talk to the mods about creating a forum to dump unwanted opinions, or "discouraging" the people with those opinions from frequenting the forum... well then you're doing exactly what I described previously.

    There is a really simple, easy solution for people who don't want to deal with certain viewpoints anymore. Create a sub-forum in which those particular viewpoints are banned. It is clear that some people want this main forum to be something that it is not. Rather than hoping that the mods or the internet forum gods or the Force intervenes on their behalf, I propose that they should request a sub-forum which they can make into whatever they envision. Then everyone is happy.

    Why would anyone object to that?
     
  17. viper

    viper New Member

    Jun 7, 2000
    Paramus, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, what you're suggesting is keeping the crap that has been discussed to death on the main forum, with just about every thread being hijacked by the usual suspects, and making a sub forum for those that would rather not wade through the s**t time and time again. I think my suggestion of beating a dead horse was better, but whatever. And remember, there is already another forum/site devoted to all things Red Bull sucking. I'm just suggesting that this one should not be allowed to go the same way.
     
  18. Blue Note

    Blue Note New Member

    Nov 17, 2003
    Pawling, New York
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I won't speak for viper and Homebrew but I suspect the first was just being snarky and the second strikes me more as a plea for a bit less flaming of newbies and an appreciation that not everyone is on the Red Bull is Evil bandwagon. I understand how he feels. I personally have never suggested that we create a separate "Shiny Happy People" forum. Bitching and moaning about the club you support is part of the fun, in moderation.

    I think the problem is that so many threads devolve into an endless branding discussion. Maybe the solution is to have a single thread where that can be discussed or a "beat the dead horse" thread like viper suggested, where people can hash it out as they wish.

    I don't know the answer but it would be nice if our own fans weren't at each other's throats and hurling epithets around.
     
  19. viper

    viper New Member

    Jun 7, 2000
    Paramus, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, exactly!
     
  20. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What I'm suggesting is that it's not your job to determine what is crap or s**t and what isn't.

    I get your point with the flaming/epithets and the frustration over the same topics/viewpoints being hashed out over and over again ad nauseum.

    However, there is a distinct danger to creating a "beat the dead horse" forum. In recent threads, I was accused of complaining about the team's branding, when I was doing nothing of the sort. Someone else might express a different frustration with Red Bull and be labeled a hater who just wants to talk about Red Bull sucking. It's easy to lump posters into categories in our minds, and to believe that because a few individuals are aggressive and abrasive, that all people who share their viewpoints are thread hijackers posting nothing but crap, who just think Red Bull is evil, etc.

    In the end, it all comes down to what you want this forum to be. If it's going to be a place where supporters of all stripes can genuinely express their opinions, then there are going to be opinions which appear to you to be pointlessly negative. The more people are not taken seriously, but instead told that their views are nothing more than simplistic, knee-jerk hatred of the Red Bull corporation, the more vigorously they are going to defend their views. And then we get threads devolving into sniping and mutual abuse. It's a two-sided coin.

    Respect of other people's perspective has to come from both sides, if an open and multifaceted main forum is what we want.

    OTOH, if what people want is a forum where only (or mostly) "real" supporters post, or where there is a leash on the negativity, then that is something different. That is a forum moderated with a heavy hand and not completely open to all people's honest opinions. That is a forum not reflective of how supporters really feel.

    You can say, "I want to hear all opinions; bitching and moaning are part of the fun... but only in moderation," if you're just talking about your ideal of what the forum could/should be like. But when you're talking about taking steps to enforce that moderation, then you're talking about making specific decisions regarding which opinions are part of the fun and which are not. You're advocating the censored forum over the open one.
     
  21. Homebrew4U

    Homebrew4U New Member

    Jul 25, 2009
    Eastchester, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Demosthenes comes along with her selective quoting. What else did I say, just one paragraph above that?

    Hmmm... and what else did I say?

    Why don't you go back and re-read my posts? Acknowledging that unrelenting posts expressing little more than contempt might detract from the atmosphere here for some posters is not the same thing as saying that people shouldn't be allowed to make the posts.

    I'm actually surprised that you would support the segregation of ideas, to tell you the truth.
     
  22. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do not support the segregation of ideas. I would like irrational defenders of Red Bull who refuse to criticize the corporation to continue posting on the main forum. I welcome their views.

    I do have to question, however, if they really are supporters...
     
  23. Homebrew4U

    Homebrew4U New Member

    Jul 25, 2009
    Eastchester, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that the "beat a dead horse" thread is tricky. But I didn't see it as a place to put *haters.* I saw is as a place where a mod could drop threads that digress into the same back-and-forth. I'm willing to bet half the forum would nominate this series of discussion, as well as the "Bruce Arena" thread--that includes my posts. I suspect OUR endless bickering about this crap is as off-putting to some people as the negative posts might be to others. That was my vision for the "beat a dead horse" forum--a place to push any topic that is, well... beating a dead horse--not to censor, just to "take it outside." If the counter-argument is, "well, who decides what's a tired subject?" well... you get no arguement from me on that. I don't really care if it happens or not--I was just trying to develop an idea. I'm not so stupid to think that whenever these discussions come up, people don't want to stick me in a box right along with Onionsack, viper, and you. But I'm happy to do this in the main forum, too.

    That sounds nice. Were you respecting BlueNote's perspective when you were equating it with the helplessness of a girl being beaten by her boyfriend? OK, sorry to be snarky, but I do find it a bit insincere to type this noble tenet on mutual respect just minutes after your other post belittling Blue Note in another thread, with questionable taste and no sign of respect.

    You should question that if you feel the need. I'd wonder about the irrational defenders who refuse to criticize the corporation, too. But I've only met the rational defenders, who do criticize the corporation, but who haven't had their fandom shaken because of it.
     
  24. Blue Note

    Blue Note New Member

    Nov 17, 2003
    Pawling, New York
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Touché. But I'd like to meet the supporter who has not complained about the "corporation" in one form or another, whether it's stupid decisions on coaches or players or cringeworthy marketing campaigns. I doubt such an animal exists.
     
  25. RafaLarios

    RafaLarios Member+

    Oct 2, 2009
    Medellín
    Club:
    Atletico Nacional
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Whoa!

    I leave for a day and the thread just got a lot more interesting.

    I think nobody is saying or implaying that criticism towards the FO, Marketing, team players shouldn't be posted on the forum. HEck as Homebrew4U said, that is part of being a fan of a club. Come on, ¿Have you seen Real Madrid Supporters?, they are the ones first to throw stones to the FO when their team doesn't win a championship in any given year.

    As I said before, i like the forum, their posters, but above all I like the team with all their defects and imperfections.
     

Share This Page