Race, Gender, and WPS hiring

Discussion in 'NWSL' started by kool-aide, Oct 20, 2009.

  1. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Beau Dure notes (or rather tweets) that MLS got an A for racial hiring from The Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport (Lapchick is the director) in their yearly Racial & Gender Report card. The MLS grade for gender improves to a B up from a D in 2007.

    For those that don't know, "the report considers the composition - assessed by racial and gender makeup - of players, coaches and front office". (see links for more info).

    I have no idea whether TIDES will do a report on WPS but given that their WNBA report states that Donna Orender is the only female head of a professional sports league, I'm guessing they aren't. That doesn't mean we can't take a look at how WPS stacks up in terms of race & gender.

    My off the cuff guess (b/f really looking that closely) is that in terms of gender, the league office has more women than individual team front offices and that racial minorities (particularly African-Americans) are under-represented at all levels. Anyone else want to look at this issue with me?
     
  2. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I tend to mostly agree with you. I am glad that we have an African American owner in Atlanta. As far as coaches, most of them are men in the women's game both in the WPS and throughout the college ranks. Look at North Carolina, those three guys have been there since the days of Moses and will be there till they retire and who knows when that will be. Of course with that type of success, who's to tell them to change anything.

    In the WPS, men are still the driving force behind the league. The women may be in charge in San Fransisco, but men own the teams and without the ownership, there is no league. So before we talk about diversity (of which I strongly believe in) women with money, IMO need to step up and support the women's game and the WPS. Right now, as far as money, men are the backbone of this league.

    As far as diversity in race and I have said this before, this country will be unstopable in both the men's game and women's game when soccer becomes popular in the inner city among African-American youth. Soccer in this country is still a suburban sport. Every effort needs to be made to cultivate soccer in the inner city. Eventually you will have more black players, coaches and owners involved in the game.
     
  3. Charbs21

    Charbs21 New Member

    Mar 17, 2009
    Northern Hemisphere
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a nice thought but the truth of the matter is that the majority of people in the US with enough money to own a team are men. I don't know of any women, besides one or two, that might have the money. In fact I think the majority of the owners are groups and not necessary one person. The Freedom ownership is actually listed as both John and Maureen Hendricks, but it is Maureen who is the one who is involved directly with the team. She is the Chairwoman, present at all the events etc...in fact I haven't seen John Hendricks at anything. I have a feeling that John is providing the money, but it is at the urging of Maureen (their daughter also played soccer).

    As for the rest of the team I think at least the Freedom is pretty diverse, considering the number of staff the team has. Our assistant coach, Clyde Watson is African-American, while our goal-keeping coach is a woman, Nicci Wright. Also our Director of Operations is Louise Waxler, who is one of the founders of Kicks Against Breast Cancer.

    I can't really comment on the other teams without doing a little bit of research, but I would like to see more female coaches in the league, even if they are as assistant coaches.
     
  4. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I absolutely agree that there should be more women coaches in the league. That's why I was so supportive of Kelly Lindsey and hoping that she would make it. Isn't also the majority owner of FC Gold Pride, the Nesmiths, where the wife is actually the one involved? I'm all for diversity in this league. My point was that I'd like to see more women themselves getting involved in women sports ownership. What about all the multi-million dollar female Hollywood types? There are some very rich women in this country. It doesn't always have to be someone who owns a factory or software company.
     
  5. scalvixen

    scalvixen Member

    Feb 11, 2008
    Southern California
    Club:
    Pali Blues
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MRAD12 is wrong. in sports, only results matter. players, coaches and administrators must be selected on their ability to achieve and to succeed not based on gender, race, religion, sexual preference or size.
    if this league prospers it will be because it is run as a professional league and not a cause. ferguson, guardiola, mourinho, wneger care ZERO about diversity ONLY about quality.
     
  6. Longtimesub

    Longtimesub Member

    May 18, 2009
    I don't like this obsession with how many women and minorities are in coaching and management...

    I don't care if the Sol's coach is a man or a woman...I don't care if no women are in Sol's management...I am interested in the trophies being won...
     
  7. scalvixen

    scalvixen Member

    Feb 11, 2008
    Southern California
    Club:
    Pali Blues
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    thats right. people's zeal in studying and promoting diversity in hiring (for no other reason than stereotyping and categorizing) usually reveals their latent bigotry. beware of those.
    call the la lakers and tell them that asians are under-respresented in the nba or call manchester united and tell them that pakistanis are under-resprsented in fergusons squad or tell the yankees that there are not enough eskimos in baseball...watch them laugh at you.

    MRAD12's statement is insulting to women. dont hire me because i have breasts, hire me because of my qualifications.
     
  8. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For those who're talking about a diversified ownership, sure that is one component however, I'm more concerned about diversity in overall hiring. There are quality women and quality people of color out there. Is WPS doing what it can to make interviewing/etc an equal playing field?

    I am not advocating a quota and I do very much value the contribution of whites and men to the league. Nor do I think there shouldn't be men involved. But I do think ignoring issues of gender and race in sport and in WPS specifically is foolish. Talking about race & gender in hiring does not turn WPS support into a cause. Saying one should give WPS your hard earned money simply b/c it is a women's league or hires people of color regardless of the quality of the product turns WPS support into a cause.

    MRAD12, your belief that "this country will be unstopable in both the men's game and women's game when soccer becomes popular in the inner city among African-American youth." won't really happen unless there are African-Americans in coaching & front office positions with teams--especially since the potential for earnings in the USA dwarfs that of other sports in the USA that gifted athletes might choose.

    As for caring about winning only, well, a workplace that has a diverse staff (and/or encourages diversity) can have an edge on its competitors by being a more attractive place to work (and therefore able to secure more talented people of all sorts).

    NFL owners, overall a very conservative bunch (don't let recent events fool you), are interested primarily in a) making money and b) winning. And they now have the Rooney Rule.

    For those of you who think Sir Alex Ferguson doesn't care about the role of race (and xenophobia) in sport, think again.
     
  9. scalvixen

    scalvixen Member

    Feb 11, 2008
    Southern California
    Club:
    Pali Blues
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    kool-aide, if you and lapchick are genuinely interested in helping women make progress lets go and start in places where there is ZERO progress: china, pakistan, india, iran, malawi, mali, cameroon, algeria, sudan, rowanda, congo. lets just start with those countries highest level soccer and crickett leagues.
    lets grade those countries on the number of women and minorities involved in operating their sports organizations.
     
  10. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who says we can only do one thing at a time? We can walk and chew gum. We can look at our own situations and society while working with people in other countries.

    And this discussion isn't simply one about gender, either.

    eta again: And isn't it more than presumptuous to tell others how to act in their countries if we aren't willing to examine our own situations?
     
  11. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    yes and no.

    This is the trap. Maybe I'm overly sensitive to "causes". The "cause" mentality helped push the WUSA into an early grave. It would be nice if there were women amongst the ownership groups, but I don't think women need to "step up". I think more soccer fans need to step up. More sports-loving business people need to step up. If any of them happen to be women, bonus.

    I'm sure I'm over-focusing on something you didn't necessarily intend - but it helps make a point I'm sensitive about.

    When it stops being a business and starts being a cause, I start looking for the exit.

    I enjoy WPS because it's soccer, not because it's women's soccer.
     
  12. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    And none of that is relevant to the situation here. Just because my yard looks nicer than the yard next door (lie), it doesn't mean the hedges don't need trimming and the gutters need to be cleaned.
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    If that were entirely true, there'd be more gender diversity in the coaching ranks of professional men's sports. I'm sorry, there'd be any gender diversity.

    How long did Carolina Morace last as a head coach in Italy's Serie C? We're still struggling with the acceptance of black head coaches in top pro and collegiate sports in the U.S. (The diversity report oddly classifies Denis Hamlett as hispanic but not black - he's Costa Rican), getting women into those jobs is probably a Sisyphean task.

    And unfortunately we know that's not how it is done.

    This I agree with.
     
  14. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    tangent

    Really? I'd missed that. Interesting. Is that how he classifies himself, hispanic & not black?

    Race and African ancestry in areas of the western hemisphere outside the USA is a whole other type of conversation, isn't it. I only know enough about it to know that it's different contextually but not enough to go deeper.

    /tangent

    Andy, I agree w/ your point about WUSA/WPS and support as a cause vs support b/c of a quality product. I did not start this thread b/c I'm advocating supporting WPS as a cause. I don't support it as a cause -- that's why I'm interested in discussion of sponsorships and such. But I think if fans want the league to be successful as a sporting business, then diversity (race & gender) needs to be discussed and encouraged.
     
  15. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Agreed.

    I started the MLS N&A thread on the Diversity report last year. There was some good back and forth, then there was the "how dare we even discuss this" crowd.
     
  16. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    This is a great subject but care must be made as your words can be taken out of context or over-Psychoanalized. Or there may be assumptions by some that your opinions may reveal some sort of "latent bigotry".

    Look, I believe in hiring the best person for the job, but pushing to achieve diversity is not a bad thing. Good things happen when different demographics are represented especially in pro sports. I by no means advocate causes in sports. The WPS should not be a cause but treated as a pro league. But don't other pro leagues have diversity committees? Doesn't the NFL have one?

    The problem with this type of forum is that sometimes these discussions can end up getting to be a liberal vs. conservative back and forth, name calling, getting nowhere, screaming at each other, your wrong-I'm right kind of thing. After a while it gets tiresome and exhausting.

    The fact is people's life experiences shape their view on social issues. Their opinion is their opinion. And I don't want to be screamed at like some poor congressman at a town hall meeting.
     
  17. StarCityFan

    StarCityFan BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 2, 2001
    Greenbelt, MD
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That would be a great approach if there weren't already considerable evidence of bigotry in American sports. Look at how long it took for black quarterbacks to be accepted, and even longer for black head coaches. And the latter would have taken any longer had the league not established a rule that owners had to interview at least one minority candidate before making a hire. Before then, you'd see white coaches being hired who had already failed elsewhere ahead of top black assistants who were doing brilliant jobs.
     
  18. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    How many NCAA Division I Men's Soccer head coaches are black?

    How many black head coaches has MLS had in its 14 seasons?

    There are still barriers. If not active institutionalized "gentleman's agreement" or legislated (No FA team can let women's teams use their field) race or gender biases - they still exist.

    Cultural inertia and bad habits are hard to break. They take vigilance and publicity.

    MLS's HQ and team office diversity has increased over the last 5 years not because of hiring mandates and quotas, but because the league has stressed and put in place to make sure that job openings aren't just handed to someone's buddy, but that applicants are interviewed regardless of affiliation. And MLS, LLC itself admits that it has helped the company become better.

    It's a long-term play. It's one thing to say that "the next head coach needs to be a woman", but another to ask after the next male coach was hired what women were interviewed for the position.

    Black head coaches in the NFL really came about after the NFL started requiring teams to interview black candidates for every opening. The hirings weren't immediate, but it did begin to give the access and exposure that paid off over the following years.

    And what's going on in Bhutan doesn't matter one bit in these discussions. Just because things are worse somewhere else doesn't mean we can't strive to make things fairer still here.
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Well said Andy.
     
  20. scalvixen

    scalvixen Member

    Feb 11, 2008
    Southern California
    Club:
    Pali Blues
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    andy, there are no native eskimos in major league baseball, there are so few asians in the nba and almost no hispanics or mongolians in the nhl.
    haitians are extremely under-represented in the legal profession.
    more women than men are teachers and nurses. is that wrong?
    what will we do? are you ready to correct those wrongs?
    some statistical discrepancies exist because some families, cultures and demographic groups place premium on certain activities and discount other activities.
    asians are over-represented at stanford because culturally they expect scholastic exellence. should we artificially discriminate against them and allow undeserving whites to enroll in order to correct it? of course not.
    as a woman, i don t want asian women to get preference in hiring for women's soccer head coaching positions just because so few of them are coaches in the ncaa. those are their choices not to enter the marketplace.
    its not your role nor place to correct the anomaly.

    do you care whether your heart surgeon is a black man, asian woman, catholic or hindu as long as they are the best in their profession?
     
  21. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    How many U.S. born players are in Major League Baseball?

    What percentage of the population is Eskimo?

    Statistically would that be enough at average at least one MLB player?

    I doubt it.

    Come back when you're ready to have a real discussion, and not bring up strawman arguments.
     
  22. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well said in post 18, Andy. I would rep you but apparently I have to spread some around first.


    It is one thing if people choose not to enter the marketplace. It is quite another if the marketplace is barred from those who wish to enter.

    Examining diversity and/or encouraging diversity does not mean setting quotas for specific quantities of specific groups (particularly in this discussion as has been stated several times). Examining diversity issues and talking about race, gender, and sexuality (which we've yet to discuss in this thread) the nature of power.

    A business that is in the business of selling itself to the public will increase its potential for success by considering diversity in hiring.
     
  23. scalvixen

    scalvixen Member

    Feb 11, 2008
    Southern California
    Club:
    Pali Blues
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    interesting...some minorities, if statistically small, are not worth of equal protection.
     
  24. scalvixen

    scalvixen Member

    Feb 11, 2008
    Southern California
    Club:
    Pali Blues
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    how are women barred from owning wps teams?
    how are women barred from coaching wps teams?
     
  25. MRAD12

    MRAD12 Member+

    Jun 10, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    The whole point is opportunities given and encouraging diversity. No one says an undeserved person should get the job over a deserved person.
     

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