Let's Talk Strikers!

Discussion in 'Toronto FC' started by Blizzard, Apr 12, 2009.

  1. Blizzard

    Blizzard Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    OK, first up, we are not talking about last year. We aren't talking about history. We are talking about now!

    We have (in alphabetical order):

    Barrett
    DeRo
    Dichio
    Ibby
    Vitti

    ... and eventually O'Brien White

    JC seems to like playing with a target man. Thus far it's been Chad. Can it be Dichio from the start for an hour? Is JC willing to depart from the target man system?

    Barrett has the earth on his shoulders right now and it's messing him up. Nothing is going right. He continues to work his ass off and I'm appreciatve off the efforts particulary when pressuring the opposition defenders. Obviously he can't score to save his life right now and while I understand JC giving him a last chance (if indeed that is what it was) to prove he belonged, he failed that test at least for the moment.

    DeRo's two best games (of four) have been at striker. As MF ... well it hasn't really worked out has it. In KC he was monster. Against FCD, he finally got that ellusive first goal. He's a striker for TFC!

    Dichio is still the best pure target and in the opinion of many has the best first touch on the side. The negatives are obviously age, mobility and fragility. That is countered by his on-field intelligence.

    Ibby is young and green with a future. He's a bit lightweight right now (hell he's only 17) but did show some very nice touches and composure last week IMO. He did beat some defenders to develop scoring chances.

    Vitti looks like he has the skill. I've been impressed with him. He's not afraid to take people on. From what I hear, his knee is not an issue as some believe. Why does he wear the tensor brace? The club says it's for comfort. For the moment I guess we accept that at face value.

    White will be with the squad in the summer. It will be interesting to see what he can provide once he is fully fit.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    OK, my view is that we need to start Vitti and DeRo at the front. I'm ok with an experiment with Dichio up front for an hour to see what he could do with Vitti but not until I've seen DeRo and Vitti fail as a partnership. I think they will succeed especially with Amado giving direct support.

    Obviously a big question mark is service from the LM and RM. I'm ok with continuing the Ibby experiment for the moment just as I am ok with Cronin. They will both get better with experience.

    It is a concern that Rohan was so (relatively) easily displaced from the starting 11 but we've all seen with our own two eyes that Cronin deserves to play over Rico.

    Anyway, let's discuss but please keep the cheap shots about players or JC to non-existent. Let's keep it intelligent! Seriously. I'm going to edit out all cheap shots! Let's discuss!

    B
     
  2. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Well, I think you're post makes more of a point that the real issue is wingers. We have lots of decent strikers, very few who can feed them. We're so overloaded with strikers, we're sticking some on wing to fill those positions and to keep from having too much of our talent on the bench.

    The impact of Hunter Freeman last season can be clearly seen at this point if you ask me, and losing him without a decent replacement is a big part of our surrent "struggles" (quotes used because even though the season so far has been disappointing, it has hardly been a disaster either).

    Marvel Wynne needs to be moved up to wing if you ask me. He's weak defensively, and his speed is very valuable for moving the ball up. He needs to learn to make better feeds mind you. Problem is, we have nobody to fill in his role on RD.

    Sorry is this goes a bit OT, though it's somewhat related as our stirke force needs good wings for success.
     
  3. mikey99

    mikey99 Member

    May 15, 2007
    Would like see a change just behind the forwards to produce more movement and service.

    I'd like to see Dero given free reign to play an open position with
    Guevara on front point midfield, Robbo anchoring back point midfield.
    It worked well for Schelotto and the crew last year, and Dero has the skillset to make something out of it.

    I was pissed off last game to see we are going back to crowding the edge of the 18 yard box with everyone looking to pass, instead of unleashing shots at goal, with players ready to pounce on rebounds and defensive errors.
     
  4. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Good point, especially since that's often how goals against us are scored, including the one against us this past weekend.
     
  5. v00d00daddy

    v00d00daddy Member

    May 22, 2007
    Toronto
    Hmmmm Strikers eh?

    I'd like our striker depth chart to look like this:

    1. Vitti
    2. Dichio
    3. Barrett
    4. White/Ibrahim

    Hopefully White gets healthy and can challenge for that 2nd or 3rd spot.


    As for present day, I'd like to see the same formation we played against KC in game 1 with Vitti in, instead of Barrett.

    I like Dichio, and he does well to hold up the ball, but I HATE how we tend to go even more towards the long ball when he is on the field. (if that's even possible)

    I think the strikers have to compliment the midfielders right now and the ones we have (DeRo and Guevara) like the ball at their feet. Forget the wing play. Ricketts can't/won't play like a winger and we have a 17 year old, right footed guy playing on the left side. Pointless.

    Keep the ball on the deck and see if DeRo, Guevara and Vitti can link up. They all move the ball well. They all seem to have good instincts and they all seem to know where the net is. Offensively they should be the key...everybody else is support cast.

    Seriously though.....I hate the long ball. I mean, who plays the long ball in a windy game? We've done it twice now.

    Vitti has to get the start against Dallas. Plain and simple.
     
  6. Johnny TFC

    Johnny TFC New Member

    Mar 2, 2008
    Cairo
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    In Carver's system, as stated above, he likes the target man, and I think given Dichio's touch and savy, it's got to be Dichio...Barrett hasn't cut it, and I go back to my point after game #2 that maybe the kid needs a breather and a chance to learn by watching.

    I also believe that if we are going to be truly successful this year, Guevara and DeRo are going to have to learn to work with each other in the mid-field even if that does remove our best striker to date from the forward position. I think they have the potential to be the most dangerous offensive force in the MLS if they can get on the same page.

    So in my opinion, that leaves Vitti up front with Dichio for our best chance at success.

    And hell, in this boot it up the field system we got, why not employ three forwards :eek:, move up DeRo, give Dichio two options on his first touch to attack, and allow Guevara a little more room to manuveur farther up the field.

    On topic? Yes. Intelligent? :confused: No idea, but please boys, put a couple in the back of the net so I can stop thinking about it!!
     
  7. v00d00daddy

    v00d00daddy Member

    May 22, 2007
    Toronto
    I don't think the answer here is to shoot more. The easiest thing to defend is a guy who has committed himself to shooting the ball. I assume you're talking about Guevara on the edge of the box a few times. You could hear the crowd screaming shoot and honestly, it makes me cringe.

    This isn't a hockey game where you go for the tip or the garbage rebound. I'd much rather players recognize that Amado is looking for someone to make a smart run to put them in on goal. Barrett is absolutely clueless in this respect.

    If Amado links up with one guy on a run in that situation (goal or not) the defence have to lay off of him from then on. We need the opposing team to be wondering what is going to happen next. If we just keep pounding balls into their feet, hoping for a good bounce or bad keeper...they'll just keep stacking guys in front of the shooter. It's pretty easy. There have to be options to keep the defence honest. If they lay off Guevara or DeRo on the edge of the box, then we can look for a shot. The problem is that no team will ever give those guys space if they don't fear being beaten by a through ball.

    I'm willing to bet that Vitti and Guevara will link up better in those situations than Mr. Barrett did.
     
  8. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Earlier this morning I was thinking about this myself. Given our lack of wingers and abundance of strikers, a 4-3-3 may be the best formation for the squad that we have.
     
  9. Cognitos

    Cognitos New Member

    Jun 3, 2007
    Toronto - West Side
    Really, Dichio's day is done. He cannot be considered for a starting position or part of an attack to win games, and I was astonished that he was brought on with 20-mins to go against Dallas while we were 1-0 up. He has no pace, he is static, and has his back to the goal at all times. When Dichio is on the pitch, we revert to the long ball, as Danny cannot run with the ball or beat younger defenders. We look shoddy and unskilled when we play the long ball, and we are easily exploited by the opposition. It was yet another huge error from John Carver bringing him on at that point in the game (one of many errors).

    We should be playing Viiti far forward, with De Ro and Guverra in support.
     
  10. crazypete13

    crazypete13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 7, 2007
    A walk from BMO
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Barrett gets the start again this weekend. I've seen enough of Carver's style to guess he gives him a run out yet again. (See Velez, Marco circa 2008)

    My thinking here is that benching a hard working player who is lacking confidence probably hurts us more in the long term - by further dampening his confidence - than any short term gain from juggling the lineup gives us.

    The second striker, based on performance alone, should be Vitti. Again, predicting Carver - he'll probably sit him in favour of Dichio. I really hope I'm wrong here because I really like what Vitti brings skill wise (good technique, ability to play the ball effectively into teammates feet, good shot from outside the 18 yard box), and I wonder if there isn't a knock against him for his work ethic in training that explains his slot on the depth chart.

    Dichio really needs to be a 60th minute onward sub, his game is just too limited now to be effective as a starter. My real beef with him is that his first touch invariably is sideways or backward, which is great when he's laying square passes in the box off his head, but is counterproductive when he's at the 35 yard line and the play is rushing by him, as it allows the opponent's defense to organize and hinders our counterattacks.

    DeRo really shouldn't be a striker for us, he's most needed at LM, and is gifted enough to involve all the elements of the attack from there. Playing him up front makes it that much harder to link up the left side of the midfield, and exposes a bigger hole than he fills by playing striker.

    Fuad Ibrahim has 8 more appearances before the carriage turns into a pumpkin and we will have to give Dallas a first rounder next year (a pick we don't have anymore) so his role will be limited to spot starts and the odd substitute appearance. Ideally he is given more time to mature in training and doesn't get appearances at LM - where his skills don't give him the best opportunity to be successful.

    I'm looking forward to seeing what O'Brien White brings to the team, but am glad we are deep enough that we can afford to allow him to heal and not rush him into the lineup.
     
  11. smenge

    smenge New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
    toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    I would have to agree that Dichio's days are over. I cannot remember the last time he scored a goal.

    Barrett was inconsistent with Chicago. He is the same with TFC. This is what you get with a second rate striker.

    Ibby or whatever his name is now, is trade bait. He is years away from skilled and mature enough to start with any pro club, let alone one as desperate for scoring as TFC. Compare his maturity level with the Italian rookie striker on ManU, and you get the picture.

    Vitti and DeRo were brought to Toronto to play. Both were sought after because MO either could not, or would not sign a DP. Not using these two up front is stupid, because it will take many games for them to gel, and you cannot do this from the sidelines. DeRo finally played with heart on Saturday, leave him in at striker until his legs burn, and his lungs collapse. We have no reasonable alternative.
     
  12. Chiqui Arce

    Chiqui Arce New Member

    Sep 17, 2008
    good post.

    "8 more appearances before the carriage turns into a pumpkin and we will have to give Dallas a first rounder next year (a pick we don't have anymore) "

    snap - forgot about this....
     
  13. Cognitos

    Cognitos New Member

    Jun 3, 2007
    Toronto - West Side
    Last year, when Ibby played I didn't like any of his plays. On Saturday I liked about 50% of them, but he is not a match winner. The argument that he is young just doesn't hold up. If he had a natural ability with the ball, and predatory nature in front of goal he would have banged in a couple already.

    Carver & Mo are hoping he will do okay, because it means they do not have to spend any money on getting someone who can score goals. Kinda like roulette...

    I would think that if Vitti doesn't get some games soon, he will start to lose faith in Carver & Mo -- and I will be joining him!
     
  14. Citizen Ted

    Citizen Ted Member

    May 17, 2007
    Toronto
    Here's my view: while home support is a great thing, it can work against a struggling player who's already put all kinds of pressure on himself. That's why I would start Barrett this week, even amidst the calls for his benching. Let him play in a half empty Pizza Hut Park instead of surrounded by twenty-thousand screaming fans and he should be able to focus much better and maybe pot one. If he can do that, just break through once, he should be be fine.
     
  15. BHTC Mike

    BHTC Mike Member+

    Apr 12, 2006
    Burlington, ON
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Sorry to pick on you Polygong but this is something I see pop up on just about every TFC board and it drives me crazy. We seriously need to have a tactics and terminology seminar so that we can all be on the same page when talking to each other.

    I don't know if it's the hockey influence on our culture that makes so many slip into the lingo of refering to any wide player this way but

    WIDE MIDFIELDERS ARE NOT "WINGERS"!!!

    Wingers are FORWARDS WHO PLAY WIDE!

    I hate to link to wiki (because it has its own mistakes) but take the time to glance at this because it has the jist of it right.

    I actually agree with you that we lack wingers and losing Freeman was a problem - fortunately a solveable one - but Hunter Freeman has never been nor never will be a winger. He has neither the skill set nor inclination to play that position. Furthermore, as you'll see in the link a 4-3-3 actually requires you to play with two wingers and one centre forward and is exactly the WRONG FORMATION for the players we have available.

    What makes this even more galling is it was specifically the LACK of top quality wingers in the 1966 World Cup winning England side that led Sir Alf Ramsey to create the 4-4-2 and the side known as the "The Wingless Wonders"! Width, in this formation, typically comes from the overlapping of fullbacks not from midfielders hanging out on the touch line. In fact, the formation, played properly requires the midfield to stay compact to create channel for fullbacks to move into. Over the next few decades, excluding some holdouts like the Dutch, wingers became increasingly obsolete in modern football as teams across the world switched to wingless formations and stop developing players with the natural skill set of a winger.

    Interestingly 4-3-3 and the use of wingers has been making a bit of a comeback in the last decade with Mourinho's Chelsea leading the way a few years back. His innovation was to play wingers but still expect them to get behind the ball when possession was lost thus reverting to a variation of 4-5-1 in defense. Purists would argue that makes the formation a 4-5-1 but the wide players were still expect to be available in the forward channels as an outlet when possession was won back. You could argue that the recent innovation of the increasingly popular 4-2-3-1 uses something like wingers or at least players who have skills more like a winger as well. Hence the Christiano Ronaldos of the world - definately wingers in the old-school sense - are finding a position in the modern game.

    Is all this just silly pedantic terminological debate? I'd argue NO!

    Obviously we don't pick the team but my opinion is that our management has consistently failed to figure out what wide midfielders are and confusing them with "wingers", just like much of the fanbase, has been part of the problem.

    On our side I'd say that we have two players who have something of the potential to be actual wingers: Ricketts and Ibrahim. Previously Andy Welsh would have fit the role and in a pinch Laurent Robert. If you insist on sticking those players in the wide mifield positions you're either doing one of two things: playing them out of position or actually playing a 4-2-4. The 4-2-4 is an absolutely obsolete formation that has been almost completely scrapped in serious football. It was really just a transitional stage in the evolution from W-M to 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 40 or 50 years ago!

    Here's the key thing and it goes back to why we played better with Freeman at right mid: midfielders are defenders first; attackers second! Wide midfielders in a 4-4-2 should stay compact defensively and be prepared to cover the fullbacks if they go forward. Playing wingers there creates too much space defensively and actually blocks the channel down the wing preventing the fullbacks from having space to move into. That's why the solution at RM right now is Sam Cronin. LM is more of a problem. Our best LM is Jim Brennan - him and DeRo are two the only good crossers we've got - but we have no one else to play LB so he's constantly played out of position.

    Crap, I gotta go to work soon or I'm gonna be late. I've still got more to add to this so expect a second installment later tonight!
     
  16. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    That's a fair point... not sure it requried such a long post though... ;)

    Terminology aside, I still stand beside my view that our biggest squad issue is a lack of dedicated wide-midfielders.
     
  17. smenge

    smenge New Member

    Apr 5, 2008
    toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    This team needs a little of everything, but what it needs most are:

    defenders who can defend, and a coach who can coach.

    One and Two could be offset a little if we had strikers who can score once in a while. Relying on this is too risky, but at least it would be something.

    So, we need defenders who can defend, a coach who can coach, and strikers to can strike.
     
  18. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Since Serioux came along, our CD situation went from dire to problematic.

    What is dire is our flanks. We have three players who play the outside: Ricketts, Wynne and Brennan. Not only do we not have any depth on the outside, we don't even have what we need for a starting 11.

    We've got a boatload of stirkers, all of whom are either pretty good already or have long term potential. They're lack of production is a product of not enough feeds.

    With Robbo, Cronin and Guevara we have good ball control in the middle, but the vast majority of attacking is done on the outside. Once we get that sorted we've got the strike force available to finish the job.
     
  19. StewartJG

    StewartJG Member

    Aug 10, 2008
    I agree we don't have a good supply to our attackers.
    We need to strengthen that, even perhaps at a cost of weakening our defence.
    I would consider isolating that weakness in the fullbacks who can be protected to some degree by CBs and Wing midfielders and, in danger, can whack it out, up the line or cross-field long.

    So (With apologies to those who've read this in the match thread)
    I offer the following:
    a thought experiment:

    ---------------------Frei--------------------------
    ----Velez----Robinson----Serioux-------Harmse-----
    --------------------Cronin-------------------------
    ----Wynne----------------------------Brennan-----
    --------------------DeRo--------------------------
    --------Barrett (Vitti @45)--------Guevara---------

    or

    ---------------------Frei--------------------------
    ----Velez----Robinson----Serioux-------Harmse-----
    ---------------------------------------------
    ----Wynne----Cronin------DeRo-------Brennan-----
    ----------------------------------------------
    -------------------Guevara------------------------
    -------------------Barrett (Vitti @45)-------------

    ...wondering whether:
    Velez is tolerable as full-back;
    Harmse is tolerable as full-back;
    Cronin is reliable as defensive midfielder;
    DeRo is reliable as defensive-attacking midfielder;
    Wynne is an attacking threat on the wing;
    Brennan is an attacking threat on the wing;
    Guevara is a more attacking threat upfront (where he can pass into the net or win freekicks);
    Bendtner-Barrett can start taking the chances he is finding.

    I have little use for Ricketts. He has no power to cross a ball so is useless on the wing. He has too little stamina to play midfield. The only possible use I could see for him is as substitute for Guevara in the hole a la Joe Cole because he does have reasonable close control when not tired.

    Dichio I would only use in extremis, unless the wing-midfielders start throwing in a lot of good crosses.

    Everyone else seems to be insufficient for purpose (based admittedly, very dubiously on JC's squad selection). Re Attakora-Gyan/Gomez, for example, we have no idea of their readiness.@import "http://diacache.daylife.com/_static/release-46080/v2/css/daylife/thickbox.css";
     
  20. hammersandTFC

    hammersandTFC New Member

    May 19, 2008
    brantf
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Geez Voodoo and Ecuador, some TFC fans will consider you guys heretics for suggesting Dichio actually get playing time. I however, concur with your opinions. What these same fans don't realize is that it takes more than speed (which I agree dichio lacks) to be a good, effective striker. That's like saying Gretzky or Phil Esposito weren't good scorers because they weren't good skaters. It's true, he (Dichio) isn't going to blow by any defenders with his pace but he has a great first touch and can hold up defender's til help arrives. The intangibles Dichio brings warrants some playing time, particularly with Barrett doing nothing.
     
  21. hammersandTFC

    hammersandTFC New Member

    May 19, 2008
    brantf
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    P.S. Smenge I can't give you the last time Dichio scored a goal but I believe he did score 6 times last year, in what was half-a-season with the rest missed through injuries.
     
  22. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Add to that, he was great last year effective playing as an attacking CM where he helped keep the attack moving up the middle feeding the ball to a strike partner.
     
  23. toon_army

    toon_army New Member

    Apr 19, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    How is Johann Smith doing for toronto? i noticed that he wasn't mentioned at all as a striking option or for the 2 team options. I saw him play a few times when he was playing for bolton reserves.
     
  24. Blizzard

    Blizzard Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 25, 2002
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    He's not done a heckuva lot in the limited minutes/late substition role he's played thus far this season.

    We all know how fast he is and he obviously has potential but something isn't quite clicking. He seems lost out there.

    When he first got here at the tail end of last season, he was playing too fancy. Lots of step overs and such trying to beat defenders and while it sparked the crowd the first few times, it did little else.

    I will give him credit for an inch perfect cross to Ibby Ibrahim when we beat Red Bull in New York.

    It's at 3:50 in this video. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOeIxkA3G8Y"]YouTube - 10/04/08 Toronto FC at New York Red Bulls[/ame]

    As I said, he showed promise but unfortunately little has come to fruition thus far.

    B
     
  25. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Probably because he hasn't really been used in his proper position yet.
     

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