I think i would put kaltz in the first team with breitner on the left. fischer should probably be ahead of klinsmann and you definitely forgot to mention bonhof and schwarzenbeck at the end
One could argue about Rummenigge or Seeler in the first XI, but Seeler being one of the 4 'Ehrenspielführer' of Germany gave him the edge for me. All 'Ehrenspielführer' ("honorable captains") are in that XI (Walter, Beckenbauer, Seeler, Matthäus).
Vogts edges it for me, but Kaltz was probably just as good. I wanted to have a right-back and left-back in the first XI, that's why I'm not fully satisfied with Förster in the second XI. But he was simply too good to leave him out. Both fullbacks, Breitner and Brehme, scored in a World Cup final. Bonhof deserves a mention also, true.
i wanted a very attacking couple of fullbacks in the first XI. I don't understand what you mean about foerster?
Förster was a world class defender, "Manndecker" as we say, not exactly an attacking minded fullback which I would have liked for the second team. But since he was too good to be left out, I live with it.
he was a world class man marker, so i am not sure why he's at full back for you? i would have kaltz, foerster, breitner in the first team i also think klinsmann probably shouldn't be in the 2nd team. I'd have fischer or voeller instead
Yes, he was a world class man marker, that's exactly the reason why I am not fully satisfied with the position I put him in. But since he was too good, I couldn't leave him out. Got it? Klinsmann and Völler scored the same number of goals for Germany, but Klinsmann has more caps than the latter, one of the few players with more than 100 caps. As a Bremen fan, I really wouldn't mind replacing him with Völler, but that's what gave Klinsmann the edge for me. Both would be very good choices, as would be Fischer with his ridiculous goals per game ratio, although he never won the WC, something that speaks for Klinsmann and Völler. Vogts was one of the very best defenders Germany ever had, part of the very best national team we ever had. For me, he is a no brainer in the first XI. While one could argue that Kaltz could rival his class, he was definitely better than Förster IMHO. Vogts was considerably more sucessful than Kaltz in his national team career, that's what edges it for me.
you could have switched foerster and kaltz around in your 2nd team! my choices would be fischer, voeller and klinsmann in that order. Fischer not winning a trophy is because he was behind mueller in the order and also they did come very close in 1982 and he was injured in 1980. Voeller with a better strike ratio gets in ahead of klinsmann for me. if you want to be more defensive as a fullback you'd put in vogts compared to kaltz. for me, foerster is better as a man marker than both. So foerster is the man marker, beckenbauer the libero, breitner the left-back and kaltz the RB simply because i prefer the more attacking one as default.
I give you Kaltz for Brehme in the first XI (Breitner switching to the left), but no way was Förster better than both Vogts and Kaltz! Vogts neutralised Cruyff for most of the 1974 final, he got 96 caps, was an important part of the legendary 1970s national team, the legendary Mönchengladbach team of the 70s. Vogts has to be in the first XI IMHO. Kaltz was one of the best defenders the game has ever seen, during his day the undisputed king of German defenders, ahead of Förster, because he was a more complete footballer. Like I've said, the reason I chose Breitner and Brehme for the fullback positions was that both scored in a WC final. Not many, if any, teams can say that. But talking about defenders, I forgot to mention Werder legend Höttges, how could I have forgotten him? Player of the legendary 1972 team, the best German national team ever. Him and Breitner played in the defence, Vogts was injured and didn't play in that tournament.
ok, i can agree with that trio of kaltz, vogts and breitner for the first XI. When you put it like that, vogts can't be left out. I still think foerster is the best man-marker (and fairest man-marker) germany has had...maybe vogts is as good but not as fair. brehme's somewhat overrated compared to say kaltz i think because he played for inter and his wc goals. Kaltz is better but brehme is in the 2nd team for sure. yeah, honourable mention for sure. i honestly think bonhof almost deserves a 2nd team place. Also, a DEFINITE mention also for juergen grabowski. I might put schuster where stielike is in the 2nd team and put grabowski as the #10. also can't forget to mention wimmer.
Schuster is an all time favourite of mine, no way he is going to be replaced. Seriously, his career for the national team was way too short, but potentially, he could have reached Overath / Netzer status, if only his wife was not such an annoying bitch. He was just 20 when he won the player of the tournament award in 1980, and had a great career in Spain. Grabowski deserves a mention also, I see you point about replacing Stielike, and moving Schuster back. I'd probably prefer Möller over Grabowski for the #10 though. Who would you play on the right back position in the second team, if Brehme plays on the left?
Updated: -------------Maier-------------- ----------Beckenbauer---------- --Kaltz-----Vogts-----Breitner-- -----------Matthäus------------ --Walter--------------Overath-- ------------Netzer-------------- --------Seeler---Müller---------- Subs: -------------Kahn-------------- ------------Sammer------------ --Berthold---Förster---Brehme-- ------------Schuster----------- --Häßler-------------Littbarski-- -------------Möller------------- -----Rummenigge---Fischer----- Coach: Helmut Schön Honorable mentions: Heynckes, Briegel, Klinsmann, Völler, Augenthaler, Helmer, Hoeneß, Rahn, Kohler, Bonhof, Höttges, Schnellinger, Grabowski, Stielike
yeah, true even though moeller is my favourite player ever, i'd put grabowski there instead of him. Grabowski developed from a winger to a #10 later in his career and was awesome at it, even better than moeller. It is true that moeller played as a #10 for the national side while grabowski hardly ever did though. hmmmm i'd have bonhof, reuter or briegel there before berthold. Why not hoettges even? I didn't rate berthold that highly. Very soon lahm will overtake him too
Möller for me was one of the very best footballers we ever had, he basically could do anything with the ball. Grabowski was an excellent player, but for me, Möller clearly edges it for the national team. Möller's character was suspect, but he won everything there is to win (international and club level), and could have been even more successful if he wasn't such a pansy... Möller with a 'better' character = Overath level. Briegel would be my first choice (after Brehme) for the left side, but not for the right, that's the problem. Bonhof as RB? I can live with that. Höttges was a no-nonsense defender, a very tough one, not exactly an attacking minded fullback I'd like to have for that position. Berthold was an underrated defender, he had a very good technique, and 70 yard runs in the WC, in addition to his very good defending. But yes, the RB position in the second team is probably the most 'controversial'. I agree that from the current crop, Lahm has the best chance to make the second team. Ballack only if he leads the team to glory in 2010, and even then it would be rather close.
i could rep you for that comment . He's my favourite player ever. i just found out something funny about grabowski that's. He ended his career in 1980 after matthaeus injured him! i would still put grabowski there. He played well in 1970, very well in 1974 and is a club legend. I guess you could say the same for moeller, but internationally i don't think he was as influential at major tournaments as grabowski. Also, ball-skill wise i think grabowski was marginally better. Have you seen this game from 1975 where they dismantled bayern 6-1 with him playing as #10? no mention for reuter? i think briegel would manage RB just as well as LB. But you're right, bonhof is probably the one for the 2nd team. Berthold just doesn't stand out for me to the level of bonhof or briegel. Just a thought...we really could put schuster at libero too... Na, too many better players in midfield, even if he wins 2010. He is not in the same class as overath, schuster, moeller, matthaeus, netzer, magath, hansi mueller, haessler etc lahm has a definite chance to be the RB for the 2nd team. He has germany legend potential.
Hell, Möller deserves that spot just for his "Milan or Madrid, as long as it's Italy" quote, and for imitating Gascoigne after scoring the decisive penalty in '96. End of discussion! Reuter was a dependable 'water carrier', solid and unbelievably hard working. But for me, he doesn't deserve that spot compared to the other guys mentioned, Briegel in particular. You are probably right about Briegel doing well on the right also, what a player he was, very underrated actually. Sammer as libero is a no-brainer for me. The very best libero after Beckenbauer we ever had. If he only was less injury prone, he could have reached Beckenbauer's level, I'm sure about that. He really had everything. Btw., Beckenbauer and Sammer are captains of their respective teams.
haha, the stepping after that penalty irritated the whole crowd not a player yeah, he became very skilful later in his career, but many people stereotyped him because of his early play (he only became a footballer at all at 17) and his physique. yeah i agree...and we may not have seen such a recession after 98. Also if effenberg was not such a moron, but that's unavoidable isn't it no arguments there... For goalkeeper i might put schumacher or lehmann at no.2 instead of kahn
Hah....I give you Schumacher, but even Schumacher was not on such an unbelievably high level as Kahn was at his peak. At his peak, "Bananen-Olli" was the best goal keeper I have ever seen, he could and did win matches on his own, a lot of very important ones. Unfortunately, he couldn't keep that level in the last few years of his career. Respect where respect is due, even if he often was an unbelievably annoying prick! Lehmann - no way. Effenberg and Schuster are the two greatest losses of the national team, but at least Schuster won an important title with Germany. P.S.: Imitating, not irritating. But I bet he irritated millions with it. Legend!
ok then, schumacher in the 2nd team instead of kahn! i think he was brilliant, plus he was better distributing the ball, something very important for the style these guys would play. [qupte] Effenberg and Schuster are the two greatest losses of the national team, but at least Schuster won an important title with Germany.[/quote] now that you mention this, i would put hoeness above effenberg as a loss. I think hoeness almost deserves a honourable mention, but this is just too much bayern. my bad, i did read that wrong! Where did gazza do that?
When Gazza scored his penalty, he celebrated it with that slightly provocative pose. Möller imitated him after scoring his, the decisive last one. In an interview few years ago he said that he doesn't even know why he did that back then, and that he sometimes feels ashamed watching it. I guess the constant abuse, and "Fritz, for you Euro 96 iz over" probably had something to do with it... I did mention Hoeneß under "honorable mentions". Yes, he was a great player, yes, his career ended way too early indeed, but he was responsible for us losing the only penalty shootout in our history, and he is a huge prick. So that's more than enough honour indeed. Lehmann was a very good keeper, but no way as good as Kahn was at his peak IMHO. That's why he always was the #2. Unlucky I guess. In a different era, or in a different national team, his international career probably would have been much better.
so did the singing by the team after the win and the ad in the english newspaper can't disagree there...great player but he is bayern through and through. I wouldn't have given him a honourable mention. i think i like lehmann much more as a person, and the fact that hes a better distributor puts him in the team... but overall, i guess kahn was better. But if you want to fit teh playing style then lehmann i would prefer.
In 1996, PLACAR (the most important brazilian football magazine) published the result of a research among 64 journalists, former players and coaches to elect the Brazil all-time best XI. These are the nominees (sorry for the rough translation...): Gilmar (goalkeeper) He appeared in the beggining of 50's, when it was said that 'goalkeepers dont inspire confidence'. Perfect placing, fast reflex, security and courage were his best qualities, which helped Brazil winning 2 WC. With 46 votes, he was ahead of Barbosa (8), Castilho (5), Taffarel, Manga, Leão, Batatais e Amado (1 each). Djalma Santos (right fullback) Even playing only the final match of WC 58, Djalma Santos was appointed as the best right fullback in the competition. The experts heard by PLACAR also elected to the Selection of all time, with 34 votes. With the shift of Carlos Alberto center-back, Djalma only had two competitors: Leandro (4), and De Sordi (2). Carlos Alberto (defense) He played only one WC, in 1970. But in the mind of the fans, that was the image of the eternal captain of the tri. Therefore, despite the victory of Djalma Santos in his original position (right full-back), Carlos Alberto was elected the defender. His 30 votes exceeded Mauro Ramos (12 votes), Bellini (11), Luis Pereira (10), Aldair and Orlando (8 each). Domingos da Guia (defense) In terms of defenders, Domingos da Guia was so absolute in Brazil that to take a companion to the height, it was necessary to move Carlos Alberto Torres to defense. It is no coincidence that he left all other competitors eating dust. He prefer playing than 'big shoots'. And for those who asked him the secret of so much peace, he replied: "I go by the shortcut". Nílton Santos (left fullback) He knew everything about football, so that he was called 'the Encyclopedia'. Precursor in the jumps to the attack (now required by any fullback), Nílton Santos had dominated the art and technique of how to dribble as few attackers did. In the election for the Brazilian National Team of all time, he's got the second highest number of votes (58, tied with Garrincha), behind only the 64 of Pelé. Junior, in theory its biggest competitor, earned seven nominations. Gérson (midfield) Gérson taught the crowd to see in the long pass a moment of glory as important as a dribble or a goal. With the precision of his blessed left leg, passes of 30, 40 meters away gently arrived on foot or chest of companions. He won 33 votes, enough to defeat heavyweight Rivelino (19), Zico (17) and Tostão (15). Didi (midfield) Owner of an "oblique and disguised" kick, Didi was a classic player. On free-kicking, he invented the 'dry-leaf', in which the ball describes a curve with a sudden fall and deceive the goalkeeper. This election was the fourth most quoted, with 43 votes. Zizinho (midfield) Until the World Cup of 1950, no player had been called a genius. Zizinho changed that story. Refined technique, short dribbles, precise passes and kicks made up his repertoire, the most complete player until the appearance of Pelé. His 30 votes ensured a peaceful place in the midfielder's Brazilian National Team of all time. Garrincha (right forward) Garrincha was always a demigod of Brazilian soccer, just below Pelé. The result of our survey confirms: his 58 votes (same number of Nílton Santos) leaves him only behind "the king". Consensus in the right side of the field, he left behind Tesourinha and Pedro Amorim, with one vote each. Leônidas da Silva (center forward) Neither more than the 60 years that separates us from the first World Cup in 1938 were able to leave the striker Leonidas da Silva outside the selection of all time. With 24 indications, the inventor of the bike was ahead of sacred monsters as Romário (14 votes), Ademir de Menezes (4), Vavá, (1 vote) and Arthur Friedenreich, considered the Pele of years 10 and 20, which was not even remembered. Pelé (the king) Pele was the only one to receive all 64 possible votes. It was not a surprise, after all The King headed, passed, dribbled, made goals. All with the same perfection. Moreover, he was the player who most goals scored by a selection at all times (95). The youngest to lift the cup (17 years and 8 months in 1958). And the only one to win three World Cups to date.
Zizinho was a great player but that's a big statement for a magazine to make. Maybe it's just Brazilians bias. I'm sure the likes of Sindelar, Meazza, Matthews and Pedernera would have been labelled as "geniuses" by their national papers too.
It wasn't just Placar that said that: way before the magazine existed, Zizinho was already considered a Brz genius by most Brz & world experts and publications, par-on-par with Domingos and Leônidas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zizinho What matters in that Wikipedia's article (which might not be a specialized link on football, I recognize) is that last phrase though - and that's not matter of opinion but a purely statistical fact. And for a player who (aside of Pelé's own opinion) was considered by respected football experts as the 4th as Brz Player of all times (& don't tell me that's Brz bias) be sure there is no other denomination: Genius. Besides, 'the likes' of Sindelar, Meazza, Matthews and Pedernera you cited above were geniuses as well, specially Mathews and Pedernera. They, as a matter of fact, are among the best 100 players of the world, which, in my opinion, in a higher or lower degree - have no doubt - were geniuses. And Zizinho, IMHO, if not in the All-Time 11, is, at least, in my & many good people's World All-Time 22 list.
I wasn't saying that Zizinho wasn't genius but for anyone to claim that "no geniuses existed before Zizinho" is ridiculous.