Cristiano Ronaldo or Brazilian Ronaldo

When you consider the amount of injuries and the enforced rotation of our midfield then I am not surprised. Despite that I would not make the claim that he was much worse.

Hleb was badly misused at Arsenal but got better with each passing season and was a key player for them before his departure. Notably when he was finally used centrally. Complaining about his goal threat merely highlights a lack of knowledge about the player and what he brings to the side.

 

LOL. What Hleb brings to the side is a negligble goal-threat. He's about as potent in front of goal as Anderson. The facts are that he played rubbish on the right for two seasons, had a decent season playing in the hole/centrally but still wasted numerous goal scoring opportunities when ideally placed to shoot. Compare this glaring weakness compared to the goals that Gerrard, Lampard or Scholes would have scored in similar positions. You can complain that he is not a right winger but he was played there by Wenger.

I am surprised you are posting here currently. I thought you would be watching Aalborg score or perhaps Porto?

 

Hleb is not in the side for goals. He should be getting around 5 goals a season but that is it. He is primarily in the side for his creativity and that is why he is better suited playing centrally. I said as much when the interest in him from Arsenal was first known and you can do a search on their board for proof. Wenger mismanaged him for the majority of his time at Arsenal and he was an easy target for those who are ignorant to his game.

I did not see much point in watching a game that does not matter. I'll watch it later on in the week and catch the highlights of everything else later.

 

To whoever said that Ronaldo had a poor first touch, please witness the goal at about 2.50 in this video.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsVBd5__ZH0&feature=related[/ame]

To the very same, who said he couldn't do the incisive, more difficult passes watch this.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WWTh9AAgJs[/ame] (First Clip)

I realise that this clips do not prove anything, it is possible that they could be flukes, but it is surely more likely that he is in fact a good passer with a good touch, who you are needlessly belittling.

 

I don't think he can be played in a two man midfield without a destroyer. Putting him with Carrick means we get over run and he can't do anything on the attacking front because we never have sustained attacks.

He had a good 20-25 minutes this past weekend, but it was Sunderland and we had no defending to do.

I want him to play at the top of a midfield triangle with Carrick and Fletcher or Scholes and Fletcher behind him. Maybe even Carrick and Scholes

something like this

-------Anderson
Carrick------Scholes

and then Ronaldo + 2 of the other attackers upfront (berbatov, Carlitos or Rooney). I don't think we'll see it, but i think it's United's best formation and it's the best way to get the best out of Anderson's attacking talent and his work rate.

 

anderson is one of the most overrated player in prem along with nani

 

Harsh, there are plenty of PL players more overrated than them.

 

As Teso mentioned, Hleb was misused everytime he was placed out wide and his role on the team was not a goal scorer, he opened up the field of play with his dribbling and distribution, comparing his goal record to lampard, gerrard makes no sense especially in the system and manner he was used at Arsenal. On a side note, that vid I posted was not what i was referring to in the paragraph. They were two separate games and the one in the champions league was the one hleb was doing a good job giving through balls to adebayor that did not result in a goal. The vid was his chip to cesc in the premiership.

 

Comical statement of the day.

Nani led Manchester United last year in Assists, not to mention having numerous goals, in much limited playing time.

Anderson, is a work in progress at the CM position, but definitely not overrated.

 

young cms also take a longer time to reach their peak.

He played well last season, he outplayed Gerrard at Anfield and he outplayed Fabregas over both games last year.

 

He constantly outplays fabregas, but i still dont see manchester united starting 11 quality in him. He's a good player that can give good minutes but i havent seen the extra level to convince me he will be a consistent starter.

 

I see the quality in him to be a star at United, but not in a 4 4 2. He does not have to be an out and out #10, but he's not a CM. I think his best position is between the two holding midfielders and the front 3. He tracks back often, he can make tonnes of runs and what not.

His finishing is horrific, but i'm sure that's mental. I've seen him score some very good goals for Porto and Gremio.

 

Why is this comparison going on? THey are two different style of players, Ronaldo was a world class striker who was greddy, but can dribble and dribble to out do defenders and run pass them, he can hold and run through defenders like a tank, as this is how he would get passed defender and score.

He can also pass very well, and his shot was amazing.

Christiano is more of a running from the wing/secondary striker. He can score, head, pass, and is incredibly fast, but isnt a out and out striker whos dribbles main goals is to out do defender to get past them and to put it behind the net, his dribbles are more to take attention away from on coming running players in which he is about to pass to. Hes a '10' (not necessarily a classic one, more of a hybrid), while Ronaldo is a classic '9'.

 

Yes but we judge a player where he is played. You cannot say Hleb should not have been played on the right wing as he is better in the hole and therefore we will ignore his performances for 2 years at Arsenal. When assessing a player we assess what they do on the field. You cannot talk about optimal positioning and conditions and only judge them when these occur. I could say that Hleb was at his best when playing off a quick target man against Crystal Palace on Sunday afternoon in mid March with an easterly wind and a left handed goal-keeper facing him. You cannot judge Hleb on other times when he was not utlitised to his optimum. It's a false argument. Hleb was denigrated as rubbish for 2 years by Arsenal fans. End of story.

It is certainly fair when assessing an attacking midfielder to point out his lack of goal-scoring ability when comparing him to other attacking midfielders in England. Hleb played for 2 years on the right wing for Arsenal and was a noticeable step down from his predecessor, Ljungberg. I doubt any Arsenal fan could honestly dispute that. You might have a high opinion of Hleb but I certainly do not. For someone with dribbling ability plus a goal threat from wide then look no further than Hleb's current team mate Messi. Messi scores lots of goals and can dribble the ball exceptionally well. Hleb can dribble OK but cannot score and that is the main difference in why they are regarded as being on different levels.

 

He did not outplay Gerrard at Anfield last season. He merely prevented him from scoring. This season Anderson was in Arbeloa's pocket before moving towards Alonso's pocket. Your points have highlighted my assertion that Anderson had a better season last season and this season he has been much worse and his shooting stll looks terrible. I am sure he will mature into a great player but he evidently has to improve a great deal before matching the hype.

 

Agreed, they do get a bit carried away when Liverpool are involved so just bear with them.

 

When discussing the performances of a player it is relevant to look at all of the contributing factors. A player being misused or completely misunderstood is part of that. How is Hleb expected to perform when he is not used correctly and how is he expected to win over fans who do not understand his game and therefore demand something that he is never going to provide? It is not fair to demand an attacking midfielder to provide goals when that is not his game and it is not fair to compare him to an completely different type of player in Ljungberg.

Posted 16 Jun 2005 before Hleb had signed:

It is a pity that you still do not know what type of player Hleb is.

Yet again you ignore the mitigating factors. He came from the Olympic Games and had to be thrown straight into the side because of our injury crisis in central midfield. It often involved him being used in a central midfield duo which does not suit his game as detailed by Ricardo Kaka' above.

 

Hahahah, you're talking about the wrong game, how embarrassing.

 

Yes, but you cant say the player overall is immensely overrated based on games he was used out of position. That shows a lack of knowledge of a player's true potential.

As far as your second paragraph, i completely disagree with those points. First, Hleb was rarely used as an attacking mid so how can you compare him to other attacking mids? Second and an even bigger point is it makes no sense comparing goals scored in players that arent primarily goal scorers and have different roles on the team. And even with players that play nearly the same position, going by goals scored is deceiving in terms of impact. For example, you never see people comparing the goals scored between zidane and lampard, which i'm pretty sure lampard has more during his peak years than zidane did but no one questions who had the more influence (except to fanboys and zidane haters like teso). Third, Messi is regarded on a higher level not because of his goal scoring but because he is truly in a different class. He has a better read of the game, more effective in his dribbling on top of his goal scoring abilities.

 

I do know what type of player Hleb is. You seem to think that goalscoring is not a characteristic that should be considered when assessing an attacking player. This aspect of an attacking player is very important and it is a glaring weakness in Hleb. You cannot say he is not that sort of player (one that scores goals) and excuse that weakness in his game. He may be good at some aspects of the game but he is certainly weak at others. His ability to dribble is no better than say Pires was and yet Pires could also score goals from midfield. Hleb does not have this ability and it is valid to comment on it. Attacking midfielders almost always have the ability to score themselves - it is an expected attribute. When an attacking midfielder lacks this then he should be called on it. It is shameful that Hleb apologists suddenly deem the requirement to score as suddenly being absent from an attacking midfielders remit merely because it shows how poorly Hleb compares with his peers.

As for Anderson, it cannot seriously be disputed that Anderson is having a worse season than last year. It cannot be seriously disputed that Anderson has looked lost in mdfield on occasion this season. It cannot seriously by disputed that Anderson's poor form has been noted in the Man U forums on BS. It is interesting to note that those who were lauding Anderson last season have come to the conclusion that Anderson cannot play in a 4-4-2. How did these people come to the conclusion that Anderson cannot play in a 4-4-2? The answer is because his form this season in such a system has been very poor. Therefore this backs up my earlier claim that Anderson is having a much worse season than last year.

 

But ultimately, the point is to win games and score goals. Messi plays in, and has a similar role to Ronaldo, which is essentially that of a goal scorer/playmaker. So why one cannot look at both Ronaldo and Messi's individual output, both in goals and assists, as well as team achievements to describe which one is currently more effective?

 

pires could not create nor had the same ball control as hleb. And no one questions the impact of ronaldo despite his underwhelming assists or xavi/van der vaart for their lack of speed or henry and his lack of heading the ball because that is not their role/strength in the team. It is really a quite simple concept: not every attacking player needs to be proficient at scoring, passing, speed, playing in the air to have an impact on the team. And i repeat he did not play attacking mid most games so how does it make sense to compare his goal scoring with attacking mids?

 

revx, are you talking about the same Arsenal fans who were holding up banners proclaiming "Hleb is the new George Best" last season. There has been a lot of revisionism going on with regard to Hleb by most Arsenal fans.

As for Anderson, him and Scholes together in a 4-4-2 has been pretty disastrous for us. But, as Ricardo Kaka pointed out in a post on the last page, most central midfielders take a few years to develop completely. Gerrard was absolutely rubbish most of the times he came up against Keane and for all his reputation as a goalscoring midfielder now took close to 40 games to score his first goal and scored only once in his first 2 seasons. Anderson has shown enough, mostly in a midfield 3, to justify the hype though admittedly lots of Utd fans tend to overrate his performances.

 

Ronaldo's role is not a playmaker... goal scorer and opening up the field of play-yes. messi has a bigger role in finding the penetrating passes and dribbling past defenders and laying it off for a striker, ronaldo role relies more on being a finisher (as well as dribbling past defenders) especially last year when rooney and tevez were not finishing as well, therefore he takes more opportunities towards goal. so there is a difference between their individual approaches on the team.

 

Hleb is an attacking midfielder. He is not a defensive midfielder, a box2box player, a deep-lying playmaker. LOL at you claiming Pires could not create as well as Hleb. Shall we pose that question in the Arsenal forum?

You mentioned Xavi who scored 21 goals in the last 2 and half seasons. You mentioned Van Der Vaart who scored 36 goals in that timeframe.
Hleb got 8 goals in that timeframe. Every single attacking midfielder is assessed on many things and goalscoring is an important statistic in this assessment. Except suddenly when Hleb is involved it becomes a non-issue. I say that is bogus and unacceptable. Face it, Hleb has a glaring weakness in that department, attempts to dress it up are simply desperate attempts to apologise for this fact.