Penalty Kick Goals Should Not Count

Discussion in 'Toronto FC' started by hammersandTFC, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. hammersandTFC

    hammersandTFC New Member

    May 19, 2008
    brantf
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Now that I've gotten your attention I don't mean they should'nt count on the scoresheet, I do however don't think they should count in an individual's scoring statistics.

    For instance Kenny Cooper has scored 2 goals in the last 2 games from the penalty spot giving him 18 goals for the season. How many other PK goals has he scored this season? Let's for arguments sake say he's scored 5 from the spot this season. In my world I think his stats should say he's scored 13 instead. I don't mean to pick on cooper I'm just using him as an example. Landon Donovan leads the league with 19 goals so far this year and I'll bet he's scored 6 or 7 of those from the Penalty spot giving him about the same amount of "REAL" goals as Cooper. Here is my point, Edson buddle has 13 goals I believe this season but how many PK's does he get to take? I'll bet he's only taken 1 or 2. Donovan is the guy to take them but how much better a goal scorer is Donovan over Buddle this year when you take this into consideration? Maybe Buddle deserves to win the Golden Boot award.

    To strengthen my argument I'll use the hockey comparison. Goals on penalty shootouts don't count on the scoresheet so why do they in soccer? I know, I know, penalty shots during regular play do count on the stats sheet in hockey but how many penalty shots does a player get in a season 1 if they are lucky. In soccer a top goal scorers goals are made up by about 40 % taken from penalty kicks.

    If I still haven't converted you then make the guy that's been fouled take the kick at the very least. So if Sirioux is fouled Sirioux takes the kick. If Cooper is the one not being fouled why should he take the kick?

    Just a thought.
     
  2. TorFC-TML

    TorFC-TML New Member

    May 5, 2007
    Toronto
    I honestly agree but this is way beyond an MLS issue. Youre going to have to take it up with Sepp Blatter. I dont know who said it but 'penalties arent made, theyre missed'. I'd rather PK goals either didnt count to the players total, or were specified as PK goals (for example, Cooper's goal total might read 13(7) to say hes scored 13 goals from play, and 7 more goals from the spot).

    Its really all just scemantics though. Im not too bothered about it.
     
  3. dyl111

    dyl111 New Member

    Feb 21, 2008
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I think it would be better if the person who is fouled had to take the kick. If this was the case, a player who scores a lot of PKs earns them, as they were taken down, and 90% of the time, they're taken down because they were in a good scoring position.

    If this was the case, you'd find that the best goal scorers would have the most PK goals, not the best penalty-taker.
     
  4. lalfaro

    lalfaro New Member

    Jul 22, 2007
    Really funny to read this kind of comments from a person who looks like to not know a lot from soccer and just likes to comment on it.

    I you would make a comment like this in England, Spain, Italy, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay or Mexico you might get linch, for making a dumb suggestion like that :p
     
  5. hammersandTFC

    hammersandTFC New Member

    May 19, 2008
    brantf
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I don't think it's dumb at all. To give credit to a player for scoring a goal from a PK, where they can take their sweet ass time and blast it into a goal with very little chance of it being stopped, In my opinion, is dumb. It's even dumber to allow another player to take the PK other than the one who was fouled. I don't even know how you can argue that.
    How many goals are scored from the penalty area, are from what is a minimal chance to begin with when the foul was given, if a foul at all, in many cases. That's why you see so many player's flopping around in the box when any any slight contact is made because they know if a penalty is given, it's pretty much acknowledged that a goal willl be scored.
    Don't even get me started on deciding the world cup or euro's through penalty kicks.....RIDICULOUS!
     
  6. vita666420

    vita666420 New Member

    Jun 3, 2007
    Scarborough

    I can't remember but a little while ago that was the rule, or they were experimenting with it or something. But then you run into the problem what if the person fouled isn't 100%. Anyways soccer isn
    t really obsessed with top scorers. We all know who the greats are (unlike N.A sports who love chasing stats.)
     
  7. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This has never been part of the laws nor has it been experimented with by Fifa.
     
  8. vita666420

    vita666420 New Member

    Jun 3, 2007
    Scarborough
    Maybe it was indoor soccer, I remember it coming up once. But I guess for indoor soccer rules differ drastically league-league. Anyways I thought it was stupid and unworkable.
     
  9. astar24

    astar24 New Member

    Jun 27, 2002
    Okay, this is interesting...

    I see the thread starter's point, but here are some downsides to having players that get fouled take the penalties:

    For example, Player A is in the box but is not known to hit penalties or strike the ball well, teams are more likely to foul him knowing he will take the penalty and probably miss. This will lead to a tactic used in basketball, Hack-a-Shaq. Refers to players in the NBA fouling Shaquille O'Neal intentionally knowing his free throw shooting is atrocious, thus being able to get the ball back and have a better chance of winning said game. If the NBA institued a rule similar to soccer were when a player is fouled any player on the court/field can take the free shots, or in soccer penalty kick, the Hack-a-Shaq tactic is absolutely useless which in my opinion will lead to better quality basketball.

    Why should Player A's team miss out an opportunity to score because the player fouled is not a strong penalty taker?


    Now with regards to calculating stats for awards, like someone previously mentioned winning the scoring title is not a big deal, the greats aren't determined based on stats like in most North American sports.

    But, for calculating the scoring title you do make a valid claim.

    A penalty is like a scoring chance denied, so basically the team denied the chance is getting a 2nd chance at scoring, it may be easier to convert but nonetheless is a scoring chance that team was denied, by a foul in the box.

    Who's to say for example that the player fouled in the box(example: Serioux) would not have gotten the ball and passed it to a teammate(example: Cooper) who could have then scored?

    Making Serioux as oppose to Cooper or any inferior spot kicker take the kick, would again lead to tactics by inferior teams similar to the Hack-a-Shaq.
    Penalizing a player who's squad is denied scoring chances by not including their converted penalties in their goal tally is in reality denying that player the opportunity to fairly win the scoring title.

    Also, there is no way to determine what would have aspired when a scoring chance is denied, the only fair way is to let the non-offending team decide who is best to convert the opportunity.
     
  10. scarborotfcfan

    May 26, 2008
    Also, if the player that's fouled has to take the penalty, what happens if he's injured? You could make a rule that he has to be substituted but if the penalty happens in the 89th minute, that's encouragement to fake an injury so somebody else can take the shot. The last thing soccer needs is encouragement to fake an injury.
     
  11. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra Member+

    Aug 2, 2004
    Westwood, NJ
    Maybe you should check the stats (i.e. - "reality") before you make assumptions. Donovan has attempted and made all three of his PKs, which would bring his revised total to 16. Cooper has attempted and made all four of his PKs, which would bring his revised total to 14. Buddle had no PKs so his total would still be 14, but that would just mean that Buddle and Cooper would be tied for second (both also have three assists). Ching missed the one PK he attempted, so his goal tally wouldn't be any different.

    Basically the Golden Boot stats would be almost the same regardless of whether you included PKs or not.
     
  12. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    So in this new way of thinking, would Ricketts' first goal today count?
     
  13. hammersandTFC

    hammersandTFC New Member

    May 19, 2008
    brantf
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The goal would count but not in his personal stats. Especially since he wasn't fouled.
     
  14. Sometimes they add the number of penalty goals in parentheses in stats. How much do stats matter anyway though? Always had it drummed into me as a kid that the team scores the goal not the individual.
     
  15. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    What I mean is he didn't score on the penalty itself, he put in his own rebound off the penatly.
     
  16. T-boy

    T-boy New Member

    Apr 28, 2007
    T-dot
    Who here has taken a penalty?

    Who here has missed?

    (I have!)

    So, anyone who has taken a penalty kick in a real soccer game knows that they are not easy....the pressure is mindnumbing when you put that ball on the spot!

    So, of course penalty goals should count towards an individuals goal tally....they are an important, and difficult part of the game!

    Many pro-soccer players alyways shy away from taking penalties - so if you ask me, any player who steps up, nerves all jittering, and scores that penalty, deserves to get that goal to his name and stats record.

    End of story!
     
  17. Always fun as a coach before a penalty shootout picking the five. :) You can see in people's eyes who will miss and who will score.
     
  18. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I'd be more concerned about the look in the goalie's eyes.
     
  19. NebraskaAddick

    Aug 26, 2005
    Omaha, NE
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Goals in penalty shootouts in soccer don't count either, just like in hockey. Only in regular play do they count, just like in hockey.
     
  20. SoccerNewf

    SoccerNewf Member

    Jan 16, 2007
    Pasadena, NL
    I think you bring up a good point though, whether you meant to or not. The big thing about a hockey penalty shot is that it is at the referee's discretion and a clear cut scoring opportunity must have been taken away.

    If you take for example if you take the foul on Wynne inside the box in the game against the Fire, did he have a clear cut scoring opportunity? I don't know, but lets say he did not. Just hold that thought for a minute though.

    The thing is, the PK is a direct free kick that so close to the net that I assume when the game was first thought up that they decided instead of having the whole opposing team standing on the goal line and giving the player little to no chance they would let him have a 1-on-1 with the keeper.

    So I mean to keep things consistent, if someone scores on a free kick from outside the 18 yard line. You would give them credit, right? So why not from the spot on a PK?

    To go back to what I said a couple of paragraphs ago, in hockey, you must have a clear cut lane to the goal and obstructed in some way, usually tripped. In soccer you just need to be inside that 18 yard box and be fouled, no clear cut lanes to the goal or anything. I think the the root of the problem is that the rules give PKs away as if they were Candy sometimes.

    So my question to you, is the problem the fact that PKs are so easy to score on and you don't think we should give goals away so easily? Should we force the player to take it who was fouled? Even though he could be injured and it is inconsistant with the rules.

    I think if had something different in place, maybe a rule like hockey (clear cut scoring chance), but then I realize that a play might be 4 or 5 yards out and get fouled and not have a clear shot. So then you would have a wall all lined up against the goal line for a direct free kick.

    I think the best solution is that the 18 yard box is too far out on the sides, maybe an arc like basketball or a half circle would be better to decide when a PK is award.

    However, the game has had the rules it has had for quite some time, I don't see it ever changing.
     
  21. Fort York Redcoat

    May 29, 2008
    Toronto
    I don't see a problem. The stats are available for those who want to debate the quality of goals. Assists is a relatively new stat to the game. And the less rule changes the better IMO.
     

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