Which is the more successful team: Italy or Germany?

Discussion in 'Euro 2012' started by seadondo, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Germany. Especially as two of Italy's WC trophies were so long ago. I think that Italy consistently produces more and better players than Germany, though.
     
  2. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    They were nowhere, but since many decades they are a force in opposition to Uruguay. So If Netherlands had won one WC Title 60 Years ago and then never qualified again, they would be a powerhouse??

    It's not just titles. You need to be a consistent team for the whole time, then you have many opportunities to win the whole cup.
     
  3. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    They're still relevant..

    From 66-96 german players overwhelmingly dominated the ballon d'or placings for 1st, 2nd and 3rd though.

    They had actually as many winners medals as holland (but spread over 2 more players), and I think double and triple the number of 2nd and 3rd places as the team immediately below them.
     
  4. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Barely.



    If club teams could only field domestic players Italian clubs would dominate the continent, imho.
     
  5. tino11

    tino11 New Member

    Dec 15, 2004
    Karlsruhe - Germany
    I was thinking about this last night as a Brit living in Germany. Why is it that; if the German league is not rated so highly, do they produce such a successful national team, I mean most of thier players still play in Germany. I think it has a lot to do with how they play, you see very little long ball football in Germany, more passing to feet and steady build up play, this in my opinion is where England (rated as the best league) fall down I think. But I'm still drunk so ignore me.
     
  6. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    The Bundesliga is my 3rd favorite league to watch (behind Serie A and Serie B) and I'm not putting them down at all. I just think that one could field more solid teams from Italian players than from German players; or from any other European country.
     
  7. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

    Nov 30, 2004
    Westfalenstadion
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Finals and semi finals reached also measure a NT success! It shows consistency.
     
  8. J.C.80

    J.C.80 New Member

    Jun 18, 2008
    Reasons why Italy is below Germany in the wc matches statistics:

    1) bad luck against hosts (Chile, Korea)
    2) the Superga air disaster - they missed the 50s
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torino_F.C.#Il_Grande_Torino

    I think both teams are on the same level, but germans are superior in penalty shoot-outs.
     
  9. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I am talking about overall over the past 50 years, not just these days.

    Those stats show something. Italy's ballon d'or records are nowhere near Germany's.

    You asked about players from a country right? What better stats than ballon d'or records (and national team records) to give an indicator. There was also a separate award from France Football for team of the year by the way. Germany leads that one all-time as well.
     
  10. Khaloisha

    Khaloisha Member

    Jun 15, 2007
    Milano
    Baloon d'Or, imho, is not the best thing to value players, as long as it's assigned from journalists. I do give more credits to Fifa World Player, which is assigned from coaches and captains. And, obviously, statistics doesn't lie, so Germany is ahead.

    Anyway, as I have read all thread, I can assume that we Italians are happy with our 4-1 record, while Germans are happy with their 3-3 record. So what? :p
     
  11. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    ballon d'or is assigned by journalists who are in a trusted group of france football.

    fifa wpoy is more geared toward commercial benefits and coaches and captains do not watch anywhere near as much football as journalists. footballers get away from football when they aren't playing and coaches presumably don't watch what they don't need to for their own team.

    And the commercial importance in days gone by wasn't there as much as now. If you take out the last 15 or so years I would say the awards are much more accurate FOR BOTH awards. This virtually removes Fifa wpoy from the picture.

    Anyway, it doesn't really matter. I was just using an indicator there.

    Personally the german players have in general been slightly better for me because of the greater consistency over the years.

    Yeah...there is hardly a difference between the two countries.

    The only thing is italy have been less consistent. It's not often italy put together two semifinals in a row.
     
  12. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich

    There is a very important prerequsite for Italy to beat Germany in a major tournament, though, which always gets overlooked. Whenever Italy meets Germany and beats them, in the round before Germany had to go through a very tiresome and exhausting extra-time game plus penalty-shoot out against a very tough opponent while Italy always had an easier game against easier opposition that was decided after 90 minutes.

    Check for yourself:

    1970
    - Germany beats England 3-2 after 120 minutes in extreme Mexican heat at noon
    - Italy beat Mexico in 90 minutes

    1982
    - Germany beat France on penalties
    - Italy beat Poland in 90 minutes

    2006
    - Germany beat Argentina on penalties
    - Italy beat ... I forgot whom, but 90 minutes and easy opponent

    Whenever Italy does not have this advantage, games against Germany always end in a draw (always group games):

    1962 0-0

    1978 0-0

    1988 1-1

    1996 0-0

    Hence arguing Italy is somewhat superior head-to-head is a far stretch considering the facts.
     
  13. Khaloisha

    Khaloisha Member

    Jun 15, 2007
    Milano
    Oh come on, you can't recover in 4 days? Some arguments are completely ridicolous, like the one above. In the end we beat you when it counts, and this is all that matter. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Reazzurro90

    Reazzurro90 New Member

    Jun 10, 2006
    Connecticut, USA
    Really....

    In what tournament before 1966 was England a real contender in, out of curiosity? :rolleyes:
     
  15. mattteo

    mattteo Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
  16. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    What I forgot to add was that the games vs. Italy in '70 and '06 too were going into extra-time. Of course you can ignore that playing two extra-time games against two very strong teams within 4 days has a decisive fatigue effect on players in the latter stages of a tournament like a World Cup or a Euro Cup or you might just accept it.

    What you can't ignore though is that Italy is incapable of beating Germany when Germany did not go into extra-time the game before.
     
  17. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Me too.

    I'm not talking about how much hype 2 or 3, or even 7 or 8, players get. If you are trying to convince me that Germany has better marketing than Italy well, I already agree.
     
  18. Khaloisha

    Khaloisha Member

    Jun 15, 2007
    Milano
    This goes both ways. :rolleyes:

    Anyway, our record against you is the follow:

    Match played: 29

    Italy (14-8-7)
    Germany (7-8-14)

    So against you we have the edge. :D
    To add to those, you had never beat us in a official competition. :rolleyes:
     
  19. deleted

    deleted Member

    Aug 18, 2006
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    firstly it's many more than 7 or 8. the 7 wins alone of the award have been amongst 5 players. There are many more in the runner up and 3rd place categories.

    I don't think marketing played anywhere near as much a part in the profiles of players or in the decisions of journalists for ballon d'or as they do now.
     
  20. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    I'm saying that I'm not talking about 7 or 8 highly ranked players per season. I'm saying that, in my opinion, Italy produces more high-level players, over the long term, than any other European country.
     
  21. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Well, I won't say Germany had archieved anything against you, but if you look at the last 50 Years the record is much more balanced (6-7-5 for Italy). There some nasty losses from much earlier, when Germany wasn't a great football nation. That's the reason our record vs england is so ********ed up. (9-0 loss in 1909 for example)
     
  22. Khaloisha

    Khaloisha Member

    Jun 15, 2007
    Milano
    I posted the records just because:



    It seems in this thread that we can't do anything right. But statistics are there, and even if you strip the WWII previous match, we had never been beaten by you in an official competition. :)
     
  23. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 14, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    H2H goes clearly to Italy. But I think that was not the intention of the thread.
     
  24. NickyViola

    NickyViola Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Boston
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
  25. ztnjv

    ztnjv Member

    Apr 22, 2007
    PA
    Sorry, I find this question kind of silly.

    I'm Italian American and a big fan of Italy but it's clear, statistically speaking, that Germany have been more CONSISTENT than Italy...though less successful in absolute terms of accomplishment in WC play.

    This consistency shows up in the fact that they have gotten further in the tounament MORE TIMES than Italy over the years. It also shows up in Euro play where the margin for error is smaller. Being flat here and there in WC play can be overcome...being flat in Euro play can be more costly since you're more likely to meet a team that's up to the task on any given day in the Euros.

    In the 1996 and 2004 Euros, Italy were more than capable of going all the way. But they got bogged down in group play. This is not very different from this current Euro where Italy have not impressed...yet they made it through because France and Romania failed to win any games. In 1996 and 2004, dominating yet painful draws (like against GER in 96) and "the wrong result" in the other fixture on the last day of group play cost Italy dearly. When they didn't trip up in group in 2000, they went all the way to final.

    Consistency is the key and Germany has that over Italy. That's the difference.

    Germany always seems to be a consistent 9 out of 10 while Italy's game quality ranges from 7 to 10 out of 10 depending on the day.

    Due to this consistency, Germany has managed to not prematurely exit tournaments like Italy has at times. Also, Germany's overall much, much better record in PK's has helped them a lot.
     

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