Bundesliga teams playing abroad?

Discussion in 'Germany' started by LebenslangGruenWeiss, Feb 15, 2008.

  1. LebenslangGruenWeiss

    Aug 13, 2004
    Heidelberg
    The current disussion in England concerning the possible introduction of a 39th game of their domestic league to be played in East-Asia/Australia/USA has got me thinking about the future of german professional club soccer when it comes to that question.

    Obviously it's not an option for the DFL to play an entire Bundesliga matchday outside of Germany simply because of the power of tradition and the lack of international support. The reason for that is simply the lack of former colonies compared to countries like England and Spain. (South-West Africa doesn't seem to be an option here)

    But what about the possibility of a DFB-Cup final in a city that has some sort of german heritage (Milwaukee comes to mind but I might be wrong).
    Would it be possible to get 30k+ people in a stadium there for a Cup-final between Nuremberg and Stuttgart for example?

    I'm interested in your opinion because to be honest I'm not really sure. On the other hand it's a fact that the Bundesliga competes with the likes of the EPL and the Serie A on the international fan-market and if I remember correctly there was an italian Cup final in Tripolis not too long ago.
     
  2. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    So...you don't think Togo would like to host an entire Bundesliga matchday? :p

    I could see 30k+ being drawn to a match if some of the more well known German teams were playing.

    Milwauke does have good german heritage, but I am not sure that they have a large enough stadium for this.

    Venues that I would consider are: Columbus (decent German heritage) or DC (no German heritage but a large number of soccer fans).
     
  3. F96

    F96 Member+

    Oct 24, 2002
    Skåne
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    "Detroit, Detroit - wir fahren nach Detroit!"

    Seriously, can you imagine for how long I've been dreaming of seeing 96 play in the cup final in Berlin. This idea is simply too much! :eek:
     
  4. LebenslangGruenWeiss

    Aug 13, 2004
    Heidelberg
    I'm sorry that I have to be the one to tell you but they might never reach a final again. Neither in Berlin nor in Detroit.
     
  5. Borussia

    Borussia Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    Fürth near Nuremberg
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I can't see a DFB-Cup final taking place abroad, but "Liga-Pokal" matches would be a very good idea!
     
  6. The Friendly Ghost

    Jul 24, 2007
    Milwaukee, Cincinnati, St. Louis come to mind because of their traditional German populations. But none of those cities have a suitable facility (in Milwaukee, they'd have to play at Miller Park, a baseball stadium; I believe Cincy's new football stadium is now turf, not grass; and St. Louis's dome is turf as well).

    Chicago (at Soldier Field) would be the best venue. Beyond that, I don't think any one place stands out more than another.
     
  7. "Eisenfuß" Eilts

    Jul 1, 2005
    In the sun ;)
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Me, too. You just have to think of all the people, who supported the team
    in the fewer rounds, playing so far away would be like a slap in the face.
    Furthermore doing the DFB-cup final anywhere else than Berlin would destroy
    a kind of tradition.

    But the Liga-Pokal is really a good idea, especially when the DFB/DFL reforms it.
     
  8. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    Sorry, but this is one of the worst ideas in the history of mankind. There is no need to compete on the "international fan market". Zero. Despite clubs trying to brainwash us into believing it. I wouldn't really be interested in rooting for a travelling circus freak show, but maybe that's just me.
     
  9. LebenslangGruenWeiss

    Aug 13, 2004
    Heidelberg
    In my perosnal opinion industrialisation was an idea that was worse in the history of mankind. anyway...

    I don't feel brainwashed but if a cup final could draw a large crows elsewhere it might significantly help what the rest of the world thinks of german club soccer. Do I really care what they think? No but I recon the clubs do since it might be financially beneficial.
     
  10. Zak1FCK

    Zak1FCK Member+

    Aug 23, 2005
    Milwaukee
    Club:
    FC Kaiserslautern
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bundesliga clubs have played training matches in the US over the summer. I know 1860 and Hamburg did several years in Milwaukee.
     
  11. LebenslangGruenWeiss

    Aug 13, 2004
    Heidelberg
    what do you mean? support by attending the matches in the earlier rounds?? there are a lot of people who'd get into a fight for a ticket for the final that didn't give a sh... about going to the games at earlier stages. And what about those that would really like to support the team but can't because they live across the pond?
     
  12. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    Because subsistence agriculture and famine or the monopolization of political power in the hands of a tiny minority where so awesome?

    Ok, so it might be financially beneficial to the clubs. That's not exactly something I care about too much, I fear. I wish the rest of the world would put more effort into their own leagues instead of helping to ******** up things over here. If those hypothetical 30,000 in Milwaukee would go to watch the Milwaukee Wave instead of becoming cash cows for Bayern and the DFB, this would do far more good for soccer as a whole. In the US as well as in Germany.
     
  13. Emperor_Norton

    Jun 14, 2007
    I have a suggestion: we could make sth. like a 7-Nation-Cup. Let`s simply abolish the Ligapokal (noone takes it serious anyways) and make such a pre-seaon tournament in Northern America. We shouldn`t play an exclusive tournament to show off German teams. Let`s take 16 teams (the three best MLS teams, the best USL team, two Canadian teams, two Mexian teams - and from Europe three Bundesliga teams, one Austrian, two Polish and two Czech sites - we can argue about how the number from each country will be made up). They qualify due to their preseason results. Teams like Bayern or Galaxy don`t qualify after a poor season. Not the players should be the attraction of the tournament, but the tournament itself.

    Let`s play them in an annual ko-competition. In the first round American teams will have to play European competition. So there is the maximum amount of 4 matches for each team.

    Let`s distibute money in a fair way. Let`s say every team gets 500,000 euros for each game it plays, plus a further 1,000,000 for each victory. No team get`s extra money - you get the same amount whether you are Bayern, Rapid Vienna or DC United. The only amount to increase your income is by winning games.


    That could be very interesting. And the teams will run for that money.

    It should be able to get that money out of TV deals. By inclusion of American Non-MLS teams and teams from Europe who usually don`t do oversea games, the tournament could become spicy (Sparta Prague, Salzburg, Legia Warschau, Wisla Krakow and so on).

    Unlike the English prosposal, such a tournament would actually help local teams in Northern America. And it would also help European teams to gain popularity in the North American market.

    A Win-Win situation and I am about to get a patent for that idea :rolleyes:.
     
  14. nekkibasara

    nekkibasara Member+

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Owned. :cool:

    Although you could say that the monopolization of power still exists even in so called "representative democracies."

    This comment is spot on. The true reasoning behind the EPL push to play matches overseas was to make more money. It has nothing to do with promoting/popularizing the sport in other contries.
     
  15. Scholl7

    Scholl7 Member

    Aug 6, 2007
    Milwaukee
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I would LOVE to see any Bundesliga team/s play in the Midwest, just to see some of these guys in person and to commisserate with other fans. And I understand that occasionally beer is served at these events.

    But I agree with Nekkibasara and The Friendly Ghost that although there is a venue that could contain a Bundesliga/DFB Pokal event in Milwaukee (the clear choice is Miller Park, which is also about 1000 yards from my apartment!), I don't think the event would draw the requisite attendance due to a likely lack of local interest; there are more Man Utd, Arsenal and even Tottenham fans locally than there are combined Bundesliga fans, despite Milwaukee's German heritage. Not that some of these people wouldn't come out to a match, many probably would, but I think they'd get a much better draw in Chicago.

    A game at Soldier Field in Chicago, or maybe Toyota Park (home of Chicago Fire, 20K capacity) would draw more casual fans and make it worth the B-liga's effort. I know a couple guys that drove down to see FC Bayern play Man Utd (I think?) during the CL tour of the USA a few years back, and they said it was great, despite not all the big names making the trip.
     
  16. LebenslangGruenWeiss

    Aug 13, 2004
    Heidelberg

    Owned?? why?

    weapons that are able to wipe off every human from the surface of this planet are a long term product of industrialisation. Is it save to say world peace could not be achieved without ind. and the technological evolution that came with it? I think not.
    But please let's not discuss this. Alex started with his dumb remark.

    back on topic:

    Nobody really cares about the Ligapokal in Germany. How could we expect others to care? It would be worth a try if a UEFA Cup spot would be granted for the winner. But without that this idea has failure written all over it.
     
  17. Emperor_Norton

    Jun 14, 2007
    I said it was a good idea to abolish the Ligapokal - completely. Instead we could play another tournament - a completely different type of tournament as I have explained in my last post. And I think that it could work.
     
  18. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    I, being my usualy left wing self :D, certainly agree that things aren't exactly perfect - compared to what we had before it's not that bad, though ;). Of course things also got worse through industrialization at first - but considering that modern social policies were a direct reaction to this we still profit from this.
     
  19. Dead Fingers

    Dead Fingers Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 22, 2004
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    Club:
    Minnesota United FC

    I was there and that game was absolutely horrible. Two teams just kicking the ball around (0-0 scoreline and it wasn't until everybody started booing, did they decide right then and there to have a shoot out). Ticket prices were absurd.

    And this gets to the heart of the matter. The games were billed as something they were not. Half the players they were promoting the game with didn't even play. The funny thing is that I don't blame the teams or the coaches, as they have other things on their minds. But false advertising is an understatement for what happened in Chicago.



    Please continue. :D
     
  20. Emperor_Norton

    Jun 14, 2007
    I would like to throw in some general thoughts about the marketing strategy of the EPl behind their expansion plans. I am well aware that the EPL is the richest league on the planet - all in all. But their business plan is far from being perfect. In fact as far as the selling of broadcasting rights are concerned they are always praised for the excellent contracts they make, but I see things slightly differently. In fact I don`t see any sophisticated business plan or strategy behind it.

    The way the EPL sells its exclusive broadcasting rights is simple: whoever pays the most gets them. Normally these rights go to pay-TV channels who try to cash in on their audience. And I suspect the profits those channels make with the EPl are very low if not-existing. Furthermore, this proceedure limits the reach of the EPL. Only 200,000 Chinese are able to watch EPL (the BBC even reports 20,000), whereas the Bundesliga, League 1, Serie A are still on free terrestrial TV in China (those who watch the EPL on the internet cannot be detected, but their number should be much lower than the estimates released by the EPL). The match between Arsenal and Manchester City was estimated to have 1 billion viewers by the EPL (in fact it only had 8 millions).

    Why am I writing this? Because I think the Bundesliga would be much better off to sell broadcasting rights cheap for the contractor who has the widest reach of viewers. And concentrate on selling merchandise and getting more money from sponsorship deals instead of revenues from broadcasting rights.
    The Bundesliga has - despite limited viewers in other countries - higher revenue from merchandising and sponsorship than the EPL. We should therefor not try to copy the EPL-modell and focus on merchandising and sponsorship deals.
     
  21. "Eisenfuß" Eilts

    Jul 1, 2005
    In the sun ;)
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    They actually do it, but the thing is, that it´s not enough
    to make many people able to watch the BL.

    Exmaple China:
    In tv there was a documentation about it, that the Bundesliga
    has a huge chance in China, because the EPL is only viewable on pay-tv
    (which not many Chinese have as you wrote). But the reporter at CCTV -
    the station that broadcasts BL in China - said, that not many Chinese view
    the Bundesliga show. This has some reasons:
    1. Not many world-known stars play in the Bundesliga
    2. Not many Chinese player play in the league
    (ok, in the big 3 there are also not many,
    but world-wide-known players to identify with)
    3. The matches start at night, because of the time-difference (8 hours).

    I totally agree with you, that it would be very unclever to try to get more
    money with selling rights to pay-tv. It´s more clever to make the BL
    known there, and this doesn´t only mean free tv.
    The league and the clubs must get active. The DFL slept too many years,
    because they outsourced the foreign marketing and the partner companies
    only cared of making many people able to watch BL.

    Gladly the contracts with the other companies are running out and so
    this year the DFL started a marketing campaign with sponsoring trips
    for Dortmund (to Indonesia) and Cottbus ((with Chinese Shao) to China).
    There the clubs did test matches and training sessions with kids.

    That´s a good start, but clubs from other leagues did this years before
    and have a big advantage.

    I heard in many reports the opposite. :confused:
    Do you have a link?
     
  22. Emperor_Norton

    Jun 14, 2007
    Agree, totally. But I would not want to see Bundesliga clubs buying players in order to have people from foreign markets identify with them. That might not be good for competition . I see that there are quality players in the Far East, but maybe we should try to become stronger in those markets that have already players in the Bundesliga and those markets who should be - traditionally- no.1 markets for the Bundesliga. Basically, the Bundesliga should be the most popular foreign league in the whole of Eastern Europe. The fact that in some of those markets we are behind other leagues like the Premier League shows that the Bundesliga didn`t do their job. I also see an excellent market in South America, where the Bundesliga could be no.2 behind Premiera Division, not to forget Mexico, where the Bundesliga has gained a lot of interest. Before we start to cash in on the Far East, we should try to improve our position in those markets.

    I agree. The Bundesliga has slept too long. My proposition for a marketing slogan "The Soul of Football" in contrast to the PL`s "The best league in the world". I think this slogan would hit the nail on the head as far as the current advantages of the Bundesliga are concerned.


    I read it in the print edition of kicker about half a year ago. Maybe I will try to find a source on the internet later. In that article the different field of incomes of the top 5 leagues in Europe were examined. The Bundesliga was ranked 5th in "TV rights", 2nd in revenue for the stadiums, and 1st in merchandising and sponsorship deals (slightly ahead of the PL). In the end, the Bundesliga was far behind the PL as far as total income was concerned, but pretty much on the same financial level as Serie A and Premiera Division and far ahead of League 1, although the money is more evenly distributed in the Bundesliga.
    But the statistics were published half a year ago, and might not be up-to-date now.
     
  23. Offebacher

    Offebacher Member

    May 14, 2006
    Houston
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting concepts but it would take more than just doing away with the Ligapokal and creating another tournament in the US.

    For one, the Match congestion in the Summer at present is already to much here.

    You have MLS Regular Season, Superliga between US and Mexico (for those that qualify), US Open Cup.

    Add to that the MLS All Star Game and your Barcelonas, Madrids, Chelseas and Manchester on tour at various times and there is just not enough time to squeeze all of this in.

    Granted, Money and Greed make and break the rules.
     
  24. Emperor_Norton

    Jun 14, 2007
    Yeah, you are right. Actually I was thinking about the match congestion. And it is probably the major argument against my prosposal.

    But i hope you don`t misinterpret my suggestion. The driving force behind my thoughts is not money. The teams who participate in the Ligapokal get more money for their participation than they deserve. And it might be hard to convince them to abolish the Ligapokal and participate in a tournament where their income might actually be lower. But as a fan I find the thought of watching DC United play Werder Bremen in LA or Chivas vs Rapid Vienna in Mexico City much more interesting than any Ligapokal-match.

    I think that a tournament with less popular teams might be better for the promotion of soccer in the US than an exhibition match against one of the top-10 sides of world soccer. I see a better chance to get Americans behind their local team, if the opponent doesn`t have any world stars in their ranks. And those teams in the Czech Republic and Poland have quality. It might be interesting to shift away from exhition matches with über teams and display sth that is usually not seen in those matches: competition, the spice in the soup.

    The last question might be: how to fill a stadium for a match that featues Rapid Vienna and not Real Madrid?
    Maybe we should try to use grassroots activities. It might be quite interesting to see whether we could run a promotion of the games via the internet and by means of offering an interactive dialogue with fans. We could leave it up to them, to make suggestions and make certain contributions of their own.
    We could for example use a certain show programme. Why not make a pre-match gig by Rammstein, Die Ärzte, Brazilian Girls or sth in that direction and let the fans decide which band shall make an appearence. It would be interesting to see whether bands who might appeal to both the fans in the stadium and the TV audience could contribute to the the stadium atmosphere. And this could be run as a test for the Bundesliga back home. I am strictly against the way the EPL is heading right now, but I do think that commercialism and fan-culture can co-exist. As long as show elements don`t interfere in fan culture (music during match and so on) I am nonetheless fine with new elements.
     
  25. Offebacher

    Offebacher Member

    May 14, 2006
    Houston
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not against your proposal at all, just that the timing is critical.

    One of the options could be to have the proposed tournament during the MLS Offseason. Let's say the clubs that qualify from Germany do it during the Winterbreak and also do their training camp here. Sort of the way the Asian Trip was in December. In order to maximize exposure you could even have the games at one set of locations and the training camps at others.

    Another Option: Once the new Concacaf Champions League starts play this year it could render the Superliga in its present format obsolete. Change the format of Superliga from US vs Mexico to US vs Mexico vs Germany, keep the timeframe during Mexican and German offseason, block out the time for the US Sides from MLS Play and there you go. Instead of an 8 Team Tournament (right now 4 from each League) make it 9 Teams at 3 per League or 12 with 4 per League.

    This option lets you (DFL) get exposure in both the US and Mexico and should also be good attendance wise as most Superliga matches were last year.

    P.S. I would go watch Rammstein even w/o any Soccer. Of course the song "Mexiko" from B.O. is mandatory!
     

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