The Wise Auld Fox

Discussion in 'Manchester United: History' started by Dark Savante, Nov 9, 2007.

  1. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    The Wise Old Fox
    [​IMG]
    Chapter 1: A Basic Introduction


    He wasn’t always this way, you know? This guise, the apparent calm and thoughtful fox, impossible to ensnare; quick and precise when it’s time to strike, silent, wily and candid otherwise.

    Indeed, the old man has changed. Changed with the times, with the climate of the modern game and with acknowledgement of age encroaching on the years he has left to satisfy the few burning desires that remain. Or has he? That would depend on who you asked, I would wager.

    The reputation that Alexander Chapman Ferguson has forged for himself, intended or otherwise, is that of a fiery, ambitious and often foul-mouthed Scot who will stop at nothing and crush everything in his path to achieve his goals. Past players, fellow managers, journalists and anyone else who has been on the more abrasive side of his personality will tell you he’s a fearsome man, quick to anger when provoked, steely stubborn and hardened to the glibness of the game.

    Fans of the clubs he has resided over will have their own tales to tell, not all of them will show the Wily Old Fox in the most positive of lights, but even the sourest of supporters, if not polluted absolutely, will tell you that this man is great at what he does. As an overseer and pioneer, there have been few in the entire history of the sport able to match what Ferguson has done or continues to do in the game.

    This is a man who takes a club on as a project, grabs it by the ankles and dangles it upside down before setting it upright again with all undesirable elements removed. If these requirements are not met, Alex is out, closing the door behind him as the then Scottish second division side, St. Mirren, found out to their displeasure all of thirty years ago. *

    Despite my father’s attempted indoctrinations I incurred from the age of eight months until around five-years-old (so my mother tells me), the reason why I became a Manchester United fan, before anything else was considered, was the red shirt and black socks. No, not the earliest recollections of a fetishist, just a natural draw to both colours. Little does my dad know that his propaganda had no affect on my early leaning toward Manchester United! Anyway, my dad had been trying to get me into Hibernian, a Scottish side for whom he had a strange secondary interest (which I’ve never actually got round to asking him about come to think of it.) Little did he know that whatever it was he would say to me wasn’t registering at all. Indeed, my leaning toward red had me pick Aberdeen – a team managed by none other than Mr. ‘Alec’ Ferguson. Back then, there was no such thing as cross-national coverage, no Internet, obviously, so all the information I had was the sparse news reports of Aberdeen’s unheard of jaunts in Europe and my Panini sticker albums from the early 80’s (The claimant of the majority of my pocket money at the time!! Damn doubles and getting the same player nine times, when you needed the one next to him!!) Yes, Ferguson was creating a storm well before he came to Manchester United. Breaking up the duopoly of the Old Firm was a legendary achievement given his squad and the funds available to him, which was as unthinkable and ‘impossible’ then as it is now. In my sticker album, I was drawn to both he and his captain, one Willie Miller, whose moustache was the stuff of legend. Yes, a young Savante used to run around the house with a hairbrush under his top lip, making psychotic eyes at the ball, pretending to be him. Ah, good times!

    As anyone who is old enough to remember the original version of the TV show, Taggart, will tell you, our manager is the spitting image of the now deceased Mark McManus and as most kids around the country were copying sayings from the show, in particular the word: “mud--daaa” in the harshest Scottish brogue young voice-boxes could muster, Ferguson did feel like a bit of celebrity to me before he’d joined Manchester United on the 6th of November 1986.

    At the time that he joined United my understanding of players outside of the attacking positions was finely under-developed. Outside of Robson, Hughes and Whiteside, my interest in the rest of the side left a fair bit to be desired and as the Kraken’s gargantuan tentacles were attempting to envelop the club I didn’t really understand what all the fuss was about. What I do remember is that the angry Scotsman wasn’t a fan-favourite primarily because he was seemingly taking away our wanton abandon and trying to make us a hard-to-beat, solid and robust team. The club motto before Ferguson was to win with as much verve and panache as possible, or die trying. These were basic principals instilled and upheld since Sir Matt Busby had turned ‘little’ Manchester United into a world famous football club some thirty years prior. If we lost whilst being heroic it was acceptable just as long as the other side knew they’d been in a scrap. As far as ideals are concerned, that’s all well and good when the team is also winning with this philosophy, but we were not and Ferguson wanted us to be winners first and foremost. To many United fans he was just a dour Scot who looked like Taggart and had done well in the relative small-time of the Scottish league. For all intents and purposes, the task at hand here was too much for him.

    There was no inkling back then that Fergie was trying to turn the club around from the bottom up just as he had always done whilst managing in Scotland. Fergie was trying to create a team and a club in his image with his ideals, his ambition and most of all, his pride! At the time, however, the old boy’s network was firmly in-place and the stars at our club had a culture of drinking and gambling forged long before Fergie’s arrival. ‘Big Ron’ Atkinson is somewhat of an infamous face in England these days, but in the 80’s he was known first and foremost as the big hair perming, copious amount of gold displaying, over-tan having, pastel and cream fancying, brown-tinted shades dandying, big flare and collars wearing face of Manchester United who the fans and media alike loved and who would surely one day get great things done his way, or take us on a fun ride while trying. In truth, as far as I remember, from at least 1983 onwards, talk of winning the league was incidental; a ‘we’ll do it next year’ carried with no conviction at all. I know that for me, the league was just something that Scousers, red and blue, won.

    The league hadn’t been won in my lifetime and there wasn’t a genuine platform from which we were springing off from season to season; a sort of take it how it comes approach rather than direct focus on winning the league, affectation rather than any type of structure to genuinely build off of. At that time we were the typical cup team and atypical league-challenging side. Put us in the FA Cup or in Europe and over that seven game stretch in a set of winner takes all, high pressure, high octane fixtures we could stand up to any one on any given day, but over a league campaign, the general malaise and moodiness as well as a complete lack of preparation and fitness was our downfall time and time again.

    The drinking culture that ‘Big Ron’ had put in place meant we just couldn’t put all the talent we had together for anything like the pre-requisite amount of time necessary to win the league. We could go on a winning streak, unsurprisingly rounding off at the same amount of games needed to win a cup, give or take, but after that there would be a dip and an erraticism to us that would close any door we had prised open. You must then factor in the constant injuries to most of our best players from a lack of conditioning (because they were always drunk or close to it during training) and consider the effects that would have to any attempted continuity and you will be closer to having an idea of the shambolic and unprofessional way we were as a club. Whilst those who were winning the league ran in a straight line, we would break off at some point and create a bemusing squiggle. I was used to it. It wasn’t any kind of deviation for me. It was Manchester United and a club, in most instances, beats to the drum of its manager, after all, and that incarnation of United was Big Ron through and through.

    Whilst Fergie was supposedly the man in charge, the fans and players held Captain Marvel, Bryan Robson, in sole regard as ‘the man’ at the club. If you’ve read any of Fergie’s autobiographies you’ll know of the power struggle between, this Scotsman who marked the new order, and the boss-man, Robbo, who led the troops on and off the field. Robbo was a legendary merry-man, a drinker supreme and gambler who along with Whiteside and McGrath was everything to the fans and to any success or chance of it this club was going to have. This triumvirate had to be reined in, and Fergie knew that whilst they had his dressing room, any ideas, any authoritative reproach would be rebuked and ridiculed. The recalcitrant element had to be removed from the club if they were not to be tamed.

    One of the things that may grate for older fans who saw Bryan Robson in action is perhaps the unwitting way in which newer fans consider Roy Keane to be more of a lion than Captain Marvel, more of a competitor or a more driven man. The bare bones of it is that there hasn’t been a captain who led by superior example than Bryan Robson in decades, he was called Captain Marvel because he would routinely win games for us on his own. When Robbo set his mind to something there was no such thing as a superior competitor and Fergie tapped into what drove Robson and was able to harness the player in part and integrate him into his plans. The problem Ferguson had with Whiteside and especially McGrath is that they weren’t as driven nor as readily able to face their demons as Robson was. In his autobiography: Managing My Life Fergie states that his inexperience of dealing with deeply troubled players and inability to reach Paul McGrath hurt him deeply and taught him a lesson he has taken with him into the present day. McGrath was too far gone for a manager with other problems to contend with to save and invariably had to go. Whiteside, who was also heavily injury prone, was McGrath’s drinking brother-in-arms and he too was a player Fergie had to let go for the good of his own ambition and peace of mind.

    I had no real understanding of football politics at that time; with the naiveté of youth things are taken at face value, but I do remember listening to a lot of the banter my dad would have with his friends at that time about his discontent with Fergie and most of it revolved around the way we played. Letting two of our truly great players go so ‘readily’ was also seen as a cardinal sin by some.

    The first intentions of Fergie’s regime before any of the in-house politics are considered, was to make us a name to be feared, a team that was hard to beat and one who would not be involved in any ‘enjoyable’ high-scoring losses. The mantra I’ve always had instilled in me, is that win, lose or draw, playing the ‘United Way’ is far more important than anything else (I guess one part of the indoctrination subliminally slipped the proverbial net) and to many fans of that time this is what Fergie was removing – ‘The United Way’. We had some dour times towards the end of the 80’s; rough, uninspired football, backed up with scoops of aggression and workmanlike ardour. I remember the 1987/’88 season in particular for this because the Scousers were playing the best football I’d ever seen to that point in my life and John Barnes was simply awe-inspiring… I think this is the time the ‘Anfield Rap’ was released and went to #1 in the national Pop charts as well, a genuine all-time low season for me that, especially as we finished second to them in the table, which with only a nine-point differential looks far less of a gulf in performance and class on paper than it actually was. That season of theirs added more than discontent to the ranks up against Fergie. There then became a demand for success that I don’t remember being there with such palatable vehemence before.

    It’s around this time that I recall a split starting to form amongst Reds I took my lead from at that time. Some were saying Fergie was clearly creating something, whilst others were still going on about Big Ron’s side and style and wanting it back. The now legendary story of Lee Martin keeping Fergie in his job wasn’t status quo for the time, but as with most things, the most favourable story will be taken and propelled into the spotlight and taken as fact. With hindsight, what I think is fair to say is that the chain of events from that point onward is what kept Fergie here. Just as you have now, there were many pessimists who held no faith in us doing well simply because of one good omen.


    *Pages 156-158. Managing My Life

    Next Chapter: The Great Teams

    Released: 16th November
     
  2. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    This will be a compendium or a book by the time it's done. Not decided which yet.

    In each chapter a different facet of our boss will be written about in-depth.

    The intention of time releasing it is to generate discussion on the board as well as not overwhelm any reader with too much too soon i.e there is no point in releasing the much lengthier part II right now because then part I would barely be discussed, I'm sure.

    I was going to announce the chapters as well, but think that would be counter-productive to discussion.

    Would like to say thanks to RoM and VR for their patience and input. I'm a pest, but you love it! :D

    Hope you all enjoy the releases.

    If I decide to turn it into a book it'll be considerably lengthier than the internet version.
     
  3. Vermont Red

    Vermont Red Member

    Jun 10, 2003
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    For relative newcomers to Manchester United, like myself, this stuff is invaluable. All we see now is the outsize Alex Ferguson, larger than life and inseparable from the club. All his accomplishments have long since turned into legends and we're like the inhabitants of Middle Earth in the Third Age, only half believing rumors of a Dark Lord and a ring of power.

    It's striking to me to think of Alex Ferguson not having absolute sway in the dressing room. It's striking to me to think that there was a time during which United fans not only didn't demand perfection, but even accepted mediocrity. Reading this stuff makes it easier to understand why long-time Reds may get a bit annoyed at those of us who were late to the bandwagon, like how, for me, my six year old nephew isn't a real Red Sox fan.

    My question for DS is this: why did the fans go from not really caring so much to becoming so demanding with Fergie? Was it just the style of play or was there more to it?
     
  4. Devil500

    Devil500 New Member

    Mar 7, 2006
    Section 101
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Legend!
     
  5. cr7torossi

    cr7torossi Member+

    May 10, 2007
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Congrats and a big thanks.

    BTW, do you think if Fergie had signed John Barnes instead of Olsen, would we have won a league title /break the stranglehold of Liverpool earlier?
     
  6. sdotsom

    sdotsom Member+

    Manchester United
    Mar 27, 2005
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Great read, DS. Fergie's first few years at the club have always been treated as the dark times, and most of what I've read simply glosses it over, mentions Lee Martin's goal, and then bursts into the glory years. These stories about the first few years are very welcome.

    I personally think the fact that he got Robson to believe in his way, his mentality, had to be one of the most important moves he made at United - having Captain Marvel believe in his philosophy had to have influenced the rest of the squad heavily, even if he couldn't change Whiteside and McGrath.
     
  7. Twix

    Twix New Member

    Apr 28, 2007
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Great read as usual, DS.

    Now i don't want come off like A Wum (it may already be too late..). Just how good was Robson for us?

    Was he the driving force like Keane, or did he even do more for the team than Keano did.

    Just to clarify, I'm only asking because Robson was before my time...
     
  8. sdotsom

    sdotsom Member+

    Manchester United
    Mar 27, 2005
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    I'm pretty sure DS's opinion on Keane or Robson can be garnered by reading the post. Unfortunately, I've only seen Robson in about 10-12 matches tops, some league games and the Cup Winner's Cup Final against Barca. I wish I could see more.
     
  9. Twix

    Twix New Member

    Apr 28, 2007
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    That's fine. I was kinda hoping for an extensive generous Bryan Robson analysis. But beggars can't be choosers.

    I'll just have to accept that he was a special specimen and an all time great and maybe i'll be able to check him out when i'm older.
     
  10. sdotsom

    sdotsom Member+

    Manchester United
    Mar 27, 2005
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Yeah, my b I didn't want to sound like an asshole. DS rates Robson higher than Keane - it's going to be one of those things I take on faith, simply because other people know more about the club/its players than me. But unlike when people call Duncan Edwards the best and you take it on faith with the little physical evidence available, Robson ought to have much more tape, etc to see it for yourself. I'm going to have to do that - get as much footage as I can on him.
     
  11. Twix

    Twix New Member

    Apr 28, 2007
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Woah! I didn't know DS rates Robson higher than Keano. Well that gives me more insight to just how good Robson was for us.

    If you do happen to get footage of Robson, maybe you wouldn't mind posting where you saw them or how much it cost you to get one as I really want to see him as well.
     
  12. sdotsom

    sdotsom Member+

    Manchester United
    Mar 27, 2005
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    [youtube]7jQlUG9cp6k[/youtube]

    DS, if you'd rather not have this discussion in this thread, by all means let us know.
     
  13. MtP07

    MtP07 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 3, 2005
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    DS, thanks for this...it's a great read. Can't wait for the next installment.
     
  14. Father Ted

    Father Ted BigSoccer Supporter

    Manchester United, Galway United, New York Red Bulls
    Nov 2, 2001
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Excellent read DS. I remember clearly when Fergie came. Initially there was some excitement as maybe there was some new hope that the scouser stranglehold on the league might be broken. I had enjoyed seeing his earlier success especially winning the Cup Winners Cup a few years before with Aberdeen and he did an ok sort of job with Scotland in the 1986 WC after Jock Stein died.

    I agreed the Liverpool team of 87-88 was great with the likes of Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge playing some beautiful attacking football which was uncharacteristic of Liverpool teams a few years earlier who were more dour and methodical. Maybe if it had been a Liverpool team of a year or two earlier we might have actually won the league that year. But the next season was a huge let down and there was a lot of talk that Fergie would get the sack. Maybe it was a lot of bad luck with injuries e.g. everyone at the time dreaded whenever Robbo went down because we were useless without him. The next season was worse but the Robins goal in the semi and winning the FA Cup final replay really did take a lot of the pressure off. The rest is history.

    As for Robbo versus Keano, tough one as it was different times, different teams. There were years where only Robbo was performing well in the team and he did rescue the team so many times. Keano had the luxury of having better performers around him.
     
  15. biro

    biro Member

    Oct 3, 2006
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    You know how Gerrard plays for the dippers? Runs round, gets tackles in, plays great passes and scores goals? Basically a one man team almost? Bryan Robson did that for 10 years at United (when he wasn't injured). Oh, and he did it for England as well.

    Robson was a far better player than Gerrard is.
     
  16. Mac_Howard

    Mac_Howard New Member

    Mar 5, 2002
    Mandurah, Perth, WA
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Yes, that's a good description of Robson - somewhere between Keane and Gerrard. He didn't have quite the fierce aggression of Keane though never short of defensive qualities and was more attack minded. A true box to box midfielder, a true enforcer.

    Playing for England gave him a greater international profile than Keane could ever achieve with Eire and I think that has aided his reputation but I wouldn't necessarily put him above Keane but certainly far more effective and reliable than Gerrard for both club and country.

    Best post I've seen in any forum in a long time, DS. I look forward to the rest of it.
     
  17. Twix

    Twix New Member

    Apr 28, 2007
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    So it's fair to say Robson is an easy choice for a Man Utd great. But now what you mentioned about England has messed up my perception of him. I always took it for granted that he was a bit like Giggsy (outstanding for club, but disappointing for country)

    I've always heard Robson was a great player for us, his name usually comes in tandem with Duncan Edwards and Keano but whenever it came to England, his name always seems to be missing.

    Now I'm not an England fan or anything but i know the usual names that fans like to toss about as legends, they always talk about Charlton, Gascoigne, Hoddle, even some of those pundits mention Gerrard and Scholesy, but never Robson.

    I know you say Robson does what Gerrard does better than Gerrard himself but how come (in my eyes anyway), the media and the tabloids don't seem to hold Robson in the same regard.

    (I know this post has little to do with the the great post DS did and if you want me to cease with my incessant questions, just say)
     
  18. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    One of the main issues over Robson's international career was that he was injured at both Mexico 86 and Italia 90.

    Had he played at either tournament England would probably have been stronger and his leagacy would have been significantly greater in international terms.
     
  19. Mac_Howard

    Mac_Howard New Member

    Mar 5, 2002
    Mandurah, Perth, WA
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    I'm not sure that his reputation isn't up with these players if you talk to the more tactically alert fan about the most influential England players. The likes of Charlton (arguably the best England player ever) Gascoigne and Hoddle are singled out because they were technically outstanding - almost non-English in their skill makeup. These were flare players not the typically English hard working "water carrier" unfairly sneered at by King Eric. Robson was possibly the best we've seen of this typically English midfielder (desperately missing from the England team today but players like Colin Bell and Paul Ince in the past - enforcers) who dominates play with his hard running but the type of player that tends to be overlooked when talking about the exceptional because of the relatively blue collar, humdrum nature of their skills.

    In defining the exceptional we tend to prefer the romance of the guy who occasionally pulls a rabbit out of the hat rather than the player who does the predictable but effective thing again and again and again. Robson falls into this second category and consequently tends to be overlooked..
     
  20. Dark Savante

    Dark Savante Member

    Apr 24, 2002
    Become the Tea Pot!!
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    The main reason, I would say, is that the football wasn't acceptable. Under Atkinson we were likely to do very well in the FA Cup (which was a massive competition in those days) and we'd have some brilliant games through the season win or lose. Under Fergie all that had changed, our footy wasn't nice and losing games on top of that was pushing the fans to the limit. Will cover in detail in another chapter.

    Hell no. In the mid 80's Liverpool were the perfect model club. It wasn't just the players it was their whole infrastructure that we were behind. They had long since developed a way of playing and a system that all new players were to slot into, much like we have now. So a single player, even Maradona, wouldn't have turned the tables, imo.

    We needed to rebuild quicker in Fergie's image or that of a quality manager of that time to have broken the stranglehold earlier.

    I think most of the Robson issue has already been addressed.

    The difference between Robson and Keano as footballers is quite considerable, imo. Robson, as an attacker was capable of the magical at any moment and his trademark was the long or mid range bomb straight into the top corner of the net stranding the keeper and leaving CB's routed to the spot. He did this kind of thing with such unerring regularity that the fans simply accepted it. He was like Gerrard in that he had that air of electric to him when going forward, but he was far more consistent, driven and forceful overall - Robson didn't disappear in games, nor did his level ever drop, what would happen, however, is he'd break down with injury with a regularity you rarely see in such combative midfielders.

    Robson was a different kind of leader to Keano, he led purely from the front, he didn't have the ability to get the very best out of all of those around him, nor did he really try to, but he had it in him to take the weight of the team on his shoulders in almost any game he played - and he had to given the talent we had back then.

    If I were to build a league-winnging team around one I'd take Keane. If I wanted to build a cup-winning team I'd take Robson. As players I think Robson was always better, but he didn't have Keane's stamina.

    That's a good set of points made. Very useful for people who weren't watching us then.

    Great post.
     
  21. GranCanMan

    GranCanMan Member

    Jan 12, 2007
    Manchester
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Re: The Wise Old Fox


    Keane is one of the physically fittest footballers I've ever seen. He was a running machine in his day and regularly covered between 12 and 14km in an average 90 minute game....
     
  22. sdotsom

    sdotsom Member+

    Manchester United
    Mar 27, 2005
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
  23. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Great ideas and as always well written DS. Superb stuff... and lots of other good/useful info in this thread as well.
     
  24. Twix

    Twix New Member

    Apr 28, 2007
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    I don't mean to be a idiot or nothing but what do you mean by potential..? Do you mean in terms of trophies and accolades or in terms of playing the best football or something else...
     
  25. JC7rox

    JC7rox Member+

    Manchester United FC, LAFC
    Jun 11, 2004
    West Coast, Cali!
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Re: The Wise Old Fox

    Awesome. Loved it. Can't wait for Deuce.
     

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