What is the law

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Ryedog, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. Ryedog

    Ryedog New Member

    Jun 4, 2007
    Hatboro
    Doing a buddy a favor for his u-9 travel team and he said I missed a dif. pass to his own gaol keeper. He was pissed,said his boys would never learn,and started in on me. So I gave him a warning. He just won't let it go,cause for a lot fun at the watering hole . Any way what should have been the call. Thanks for your help
     
  2. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    What is a dif. pass? Do you mean a pass back to the keepr by one of his own defenders and the keeper picked it up. The restart would be an IDFK at the point of the infraction.

    If you mean deflected pass that the keeper picked up....play on. The play, in the refereee's opinion has to be a deliberate back pass to the keeper.

    If this was a travel team, wht were you doing a game that you wern't assigned too?

    Rog
     
  3. NJ Ref

    NJ Ref New Member

    Jan 28, 2005
    Central New Jersey
    The most misunderstood law….passing has nothing to do with it. The law is last PLAYED by the foot of a defender. The defender might have had the intend of kicking the ball out over the goal line, but if the keeper now runs over and picks it up, we have an infraction of the law with the IFK restart. The ball was last played (deliberately, not by deflection) and now picked up by the keeper.
     
  4. dumpnrun

    dumpnrun Member

    May 30, 2006
    The LOTG I have says "touches the ball with his hands after it has
    been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate"

    I'm not sure how this agrees with what you wrote. It has to be deliberately kicked to him, which means the field player intended to kick the ball to the keeper. If he intended to kick the ball out of bounds and it wound up at the keeper's feet, he can pick it up, right?

    Again, another discsussion about deliberate and intent. I am worn out from the one we had about handling and intent.
     
  5. ref47

    ref47 Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    n. va
    the atr, 12.20 seems clear on this; until you read note b.
    the clear parts break down the kick by deliberate, location, etc. then note b states the ref should only apply this to cases meant to be time wasting, as this was the reason it was placed into the law.

    well, most times the ball is kicked to the keeper, it is to escape losing the ball to a defender, or seeking better positioning to play the ball up field. seldom have i seen it done to mark time off the clock.

    this law would be much easier to apply if it was any kick back towards where your keeper could handle the ball, without the time wasting requirement. for me, strictly following the intent of time wasting means very few calls need to be made and many calls i have seen made were incorrect.
     
  6. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
    not sure how we really can be expected to get into the intent of what the defender is trying to do (and to distinguish between wanting to waste time and preserve possession while under pressure or any of the other possibilities). that said, very few calls should be made, and most that you have seen probably were incorrect. i saw two that were correctly allowed to continue this weekend - one a deflection off a foot that went straight to the goalie and another where the defender was trying to clear it wide and popped it up in the air to the side (with the keeper coming to pick it up on the side of the area). it may have been a little different when the law change went into effect in that people might forget, but now you're seldom going to see it. hold a very high threshold and you'll increase the odds of getting it right.
     
  7. DadOf6

    DadOf6 Member

    Jul 4, 2005
    Taylorsville, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Must be tough kids :D
     
  8. rippingood

    rippingood Member

    Feb 13, 2004
    LosAngeles
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    In thyat vein, the same question was asked on anotehr site.
    Response:
    May I draw your attention to the following:

    http://www.officialsports.co.uk/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000404



    Member Rated:
    posted 28 July, 2007 08:28
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hi Julian.
    On the same topic.Two scenarios.

    1.Often a defender controls the ball in his own penalty area. The goalkeeper then rushes to him and gathers the ball in his hands. The defender had no intention of passing the ball to the keeper but he is under presure and it is safer for the keeper to collect the ball.

    2. A defender plays the ball across his own penalty area with the obvious intention of passing the ball to another defender standing just outside the penalty area. The goalkeeper, fearing that the ball is going to be intercepted, runs out and gathers the ball in his hands.
    Decisions? Thank you..
    +++++++++++++++++++

    Dear John, thank you for your question.

    The referee will need to make up his mind if the act was deliberate or not.

    In both scenarios, if the Referee believes that the defender had no intention of passing the ball to the goalkeeper, then no offence has occurred.

    Regards,
    Julian Carosi
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In situiation 2, the defender did indeed make a deliberate pass and passed it to where it was intended to be passed. Even with that, pass wasn't deliberately to the keeper so 'no call'.

    Bottom line:
    the offence requires a deliberate kick intended for the GK
     
  9. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    I didn't notice that in several readings. Good catch!

    I don't think many of our posters are familiar with the English word gaol!
     
  10. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    Timewasting is not part of the Law, which does not permit "passbacks" (i.e., deliberate plays with the foot to the GK who plays the ball with his hands). (NJ Ref describes the nuances of "deliberately" above).

    The ATR obscurely states:

    "(b) This portion of the Law was written to help referees cope with timewasting tactics by teams, not to punish players who are playing within the Spirit of the Game."

    The ATR does NOT state that only time wasting plays are to be penalized. Even if it did, it could not overrule the Law itself, which states no such thing.

    All the ATR does is muddle what the rule means with some unclear statement possibly implying that if the referee thinks that the play is "within the spirit of the game" (whatever that means) he can let a passback go. I think that this last sentence in the ATR is meaningless drivel, and if a player deliberately (not a miskick) passes with his foot to the GK and the GK handles the ball, there is an IFK. Timewasting intent is a non-issue.
     
  11. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My view on this has always been similar to what NJ Ref says. The only way I'm calling this foul is if the player deliberately kicks the ball to his own goal keeper. Mis kicks, taps, etc are not getting a call from me. I had this situation just this weekend. U12 girls rec match (OMG so slow paced you wouldn't believe) ball is kicked poorly into the PA by an attacker. Slows to almost a stop just inside the 6 and a defeder goes to play the ball. Just as she gets ready to kick, the keeper yells for the ball. The defender, unable to stop her momentum lightly taps the ball forward (a few inches) and then the keeper picks it up.

    I immediately shot a look to my AR who I could see was getting ready to raise his flag. Quickly waived him off before he could get it up in the air and I let play continue. To me this is not what the law is there to prevent and it's not getting a call from me. Thing was there were no protests from either side which kind of surprised me. I did expect a little flack from the attacking team.
     
  12. Emmet Kipengwe

    Aug 15, 2004
    Maryland
    There are 2 NJrefs repying on this thread.
    I agree with njref, disagree with NJ Ref.
    There ball must be deliberately played to the keeper.
     
  13. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    NJRef (me) aka "no space"

    NJ Ref (him) aka "space"

    I believe that NJ Ref and I both agree that miskicks are not punishable, but deliberate kicks to a place where the ball is easily playable by the GK are.
     
  14. headerdunce

    headerdunce Member

    Dec 19, 2005

    It's hard to argue with a spaced out NJ Ref.
     
  15. NJ Ref

    NJ Ref New Member

    Jan 28, 2005
    Central New Jersey
    Deja vu all over again. If my feeble “spaced” mind recollects, we killed this subject a few times over.

    The biggest problem with the mis-interpretation of this law is the unfortunate name it has picked up…PASS BACK…and “pass” or “back” have nothing to do with the law.

    Let’s take another swing at this:

    DELIBERATE DEFINITION – Deliberate means by conscious design or purpose…that is, the player consciously kick the ball…it was not a deflection or mis-play…but purposely kicked. Direction is not mentioned…just deliberately kick. Did I mention that the direction of the kick is not mentioned? Therefore, the only thing I need to determine is whether or not the kick was deliberate…not a deflection or mis-kick.

    INTENT BELIEVERS – please help me out. I have not been able to read players minds to determine intent. Unfortunately I only CALL WHAT I SEE and have not been successful in trying to read minds as to the intent. I want to believe that a player did not intend to late tackle an opponent, but not knowing for sure, I call the foul. I want to believe that a player did not intend to jump on another player while going up for a headball, but again, I call the foul. Please, help me in determining a player’s intent. Similarly, I do not know the intent of a player that deliberately kicks the ball that is then picked up by the keeper. I can only judge what I see…and I see a ball deliberately kicked and now picked up.

    ENGLISH examples in above post – They don’t know the Laws or the English language.
     
  16. Hattrix

    Hattrix Member

    Sep 1, 2002
    Chicago
    Don't want to be tossed in Gaol for this, but the law says "...deliberately kicked TO HIM...,"
    which could be interpreted as a comment on direction.

    On IFKs, we say a tap is not a kick, so what about a scenario where a defender wins the ball, dribbles to the keeper, steps on it to stop it, and leaves it there to be picked up? It has not been "kicked" to the keeper, so are hands an option?

    For me, I'd consider this one of those "deliberate tricks" designed to circumvent the rule. If a player has control of the ball at his feet, the keeper's hands are not an option. The problem with interpreting these deliberate tricks, of course, is the mindreading component ;)
     
  17. chrisrun

    chrisrun Member

    Jan 13, 2004
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If we look at the ATR 12.20, we see:

    "The requirement that the ball be kicked means only that it has been played with the foot. The requirement that the ball be "kicked to" the goalkeeper means only that the play is to or toward a place where the ‘keeper can legally handle the ball. The requirement that the ball be "deliberately kicked" means that the play on the ball is deliberate and does not include situations in which the ball has been, in the opinion of the referee, accidentally deflected or misdirected."
     
  18. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is more to this particular rule:
    I had a case similar to one mentioned by a previous poster--defender dribbling across her own PA; keeper came out and scooped up the ball. To me, this was nothing more than a "deliberate trick" (whether or not the player(s) "intended" it to be so (I could not/cannot determine 'intention')). An example of a "deliberate trick" that I have seen mentioned in some official document or other is the case in which a defender flicks the ball from the ground to his own head and then back to the keeper who handles it.
     
  19. DadOf6

    DadOf6 Member

    Jul 4, 2005
    Taylorsville, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I disagree. The card is shown to the field player who uses a trick. I can't by any stretch of the imagination rule that dribbling near the 'keeper is a trick.

    The LOTG do not permit us to caution the 'keeper for this.
     
  20. Emmet Kipengwe

    Aug 15, 2004
    Maryland
    What, then, is your call when a midfielder passes the ball back to the sweeper and the keeper comes running out saying, "Mine!" and picks it up inside the PA?
     
  21. refereejoe

    refereejoe New Member

    Aug 20, 2007
    Bay Area - Cal North
    IFK for the opponent at the point where the ball is handled by the keeper. The midfielder deliberate kicks the ball, and the ball goes to an area where the keeper may handle it. The keeper then handles it. All parts of the law are satisfied, regardless if this was the original intention of the midfielder.
     
  22. Hattrix

    Hattrix Member

    Sep 1, 2002
    Chicago
    Very nice. So in the case of a trap by a defender, who is then called off by the keeper, hands are not an option. This has always been my interpretation, but it's nice to see some validation from the ATR. Thanks. Once again, I really appreciate the discussions on this site.
     
  23. daerfellow

    daerfellow New Member

    Jun 26, 2006
    Frisco
    I have a similar question. If an opponent plays a ball into the penalty area, that then rolls out the side of the penalty area w/o being touched or leaving the field of play, is it legal for the defending goal keeper to gather the ball outside the penalty area(with his feet) bring the ball back into the area and then pick the ball up?

    If so where can I find that in writing? I am sure I have seen this very thing happen many times at the professional level.

    Help please.....
     
  24. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    Absolutely.

    In Law 12. The offense is if a keeper handles the ball that is deliberately kicked to him by a teammate. The ball was played to him by the opposition.
     
  25. chrisrun

    chrisrun Member

    Jan 13, 2004
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It doesn't even have to enter the penalty area first. The keeper can handle the ball in his own penalty area as long as it wasn't passed with the foot or thrown to him by a teammate. There's nothing that says he CAN'T do what you describe.

    If you need more support, see the ATR 12.20, where is says "The goalkeeper is permitted to dribble into the penalty area and then pick up any ball played legally ... by a teammate or played in any manner by an opponent."
     

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