Parkurst = Flexibility

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Bob Morocco, Sep 3, 2007.

  1. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    It would be great if we could tailor our CB pairing to our opponent, and in my mind when doing so there are few teams who I wouldn't consider starting Parkhurst for his technical, tactical, and positional skills. Against Brazil I would have gone Onyewu-Parkhurst and let Mike play a role in organizing the defense. In fact against any team I'd consider a 3-5-2/4-4-2 with:

    --------------Howard---------------
    -------Onyewu--Parkhurst--Spector-
    -Dolo-------------------------------
    ----------------Clark--------Beasley
    --------Dempsey--Feilhaber---------
    ------------------------------------
    ------------Donovan---------------
    --------------Johnson--------------

    I think that would give a good combination of cover, positional/role optimization, speed, and flexibility to put in a good performance. You could go even more defensive and switch Boca for Spector. Too bad we can't see this first XI against Brazil because It would let the US play almost everything from a 4-1-2-1-2, to a 4-3-3, to a 3-1-4-1-1, to a 5-1-2-1-1 while putting players in comfortable positions. This system is based off of what Argentina did at the last World Cup except with the switch coming from the right with Dolo instead of Sorin on the left. Oh and I'm in no way married to EJ up top.
     
  2. babytiger2001

    babytiger2001 New Member

    Dec 29, 2000
    Melbourne
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing Bruce Arena valued greatly -- as do all coaches, to varying extents -- during his time with the USMNT is the versatility of certain players. No "square peg, square hole" thinking allowed, basically.

    Very much agreed that Michael Parkhurst is one of those types of players that Bob Bradley uses for the same purpose.
     
  3. Maitreya

    Maitreya Member+

    Apr 30, 2007
    Providence, RI
    I like this lineup. I think Clark could fill the role necessary in the middle. Spector isn't much of a left back, but if he's basically a third center back, then I feel better about him. I like the idea of experimenting with Parkhurst because while I like Conrad, in my opinion he's getting too old and isn't all that good.
     
  4. Jonny Bishop

    Jonny Bishop Member

    Sep 18, 2004
    Tacoma
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  5. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    I'd put Parkhurst to the right of Onyewu.

    Though, I'd play Demerit there before Parkhurst.

    4-4-2/3-5-2 hybrid is a rather complicated system and I doubt Bob has the knowledge to carry it off.

    I am also not sure if Cherundolo can carry it off either since he becomes the focus of this system.

    However ... seeing how many Mexican teams, including Pachuca, feature a 5-3-2.

    -------Demerit-----Onyewu-----Bocanegra ----

    -'Dolo---------------------------------Pearce--

    -------------------Bradley---------------------

    -------Dempsey---------------------Beasley----

    -----------Ching---------------Donovan--------

    And, if you want more protection up the middle, you could sub Ching for Feilhaber and put Benny next to Mikey.

    The thing about the current version of the USMNT is that its formation is going to be midfielders heavy regardless ... almost makes you go to 3-6-1.
     
  6. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Huh? YOU understand how complicated it is, but you think BOB BRADLEY can't coach it??? :rolleyes:
     
  7. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Based on my nuanced reading of numerous BS threads, I don't believe SFS has a very high opinion of Coach Bradley's capabilities.

    Re Parkhurst, I like him as a Nicol back or as part of a dime package. He can't play cornerback or strong safety - so weak safety is probably his best bet.

    I wonder if anyone has considered moving him forward into midfield ...
     
  8. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    He's filled in as a defensive midfielder once or twice this season for the Revs. He looked good defensively but more than a little lacking on the offensive side.
     
  9. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    I think he could grow into the position, especially with (a*) Feilhaber alongside to push things forward.

    I haven't seen as much of Parkhurst as I would like, in both senses. He seems to read the game and anticipate well, qualities we could definitely use. I guess he's needed elsewhere on Sunday.

    ----------

    * I'd like to say 'a' Feilhaber, but that's wishful thinking - we only have one.
     
  10. Bigrose30

    Bigrose30 Member+

    Sep 11, 2004
    Jersey City, NJ
    If the US ever plays a 3-man backline, I think Parkhurst would be superb. He reads the game very well from that spot, anticipating passes and cutting them out with ease.

    However in a 4-man backline, I'm not sold. He'd have to adjust to the formation and adjust to a position that requires more one-on-one defending, more aerial battling. And no matter how superbly he positions himself, you're only as good as your other CB, so his advantages would be reduced there.

    This is not a knock on Parkhurst, as I think a backline of Boca-Parkhurst-Spector would be excellent in combination with Beasley and Mullan/Cherundolo as the wingbacks.
     
  11. DaMa

    DaMa Member

    Jun 17, 2002
    New York
    Why make this conversion? We have a glut of potential defensive/holding midfielders at the moment with Bradley/Clark/Feilhaber/Mastro not to mention some potential on the horizon (eg Szetela). God forbid we wind up with a coach not looking to use 2 holding midfielders our glut would become even more... glutinous.

    Meanwhile our middle defensive pairing right now seems to consist of two relatively large, relatively slow middle defenders prone to poor clearances and/or badly timed fouls. I think the Boca/Onyewu pairing has some serious flaws. Since we don't have any great middle pairing right now (barring a resurgence of Gibbs) it would seem to be a much better solution to advocate actually using someone who complements gooch/onyewu better (such as a parkhurst/demerit type) rather than one who exacerbates their deficiencies.

    Central defense appeared to be a strength of ours a few years ago, but right now I'd hesitate to say we could afford to lose any prospects here.
     
  12. DaMa

    DaMa Member

    Jun 17, 2002
    New York
    Mullan?!?!? No offense, but while I think he's been a solid MLSer, if thats the best we can come up with on the right wing, I am going to take a big pass on the 3-5-2. Luckily I'm sure we can find better somewhere.
     
  13. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Anyone can get the basic formations out of a coaching manual and Bob screws up the "Empty Bucket" even then.

    But, if you go beyiond the manuals, the hard part of 4-4-2/3-5-2 hybrid is the system of "checks and balances" - who covers for whom under which circumstances.

    Argentina was skilled enough with Riquelme, Saviola, Crespo, Rodriguez and Sorin to attack with 5 players because their transition game and passing was so good. They could circulate 40 yards off the goal, get it to Riquelme and wait for a pin-point pass to a striker. And, if they found themselves in trouble, they could always bring in Messi and Tevez to adjust their schemes.

    But it was all predicated on Peckerman knowing this formation inside and out and choosing players that were perfect for it, even leaving stars like Pupi Zanetti off the WC roster.

    With the US, however, you get a coach who never ran it and players who had never played it and/or not particularly suited for it.

    All those are signs that point to having a disaster on your hands.
     
  14. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    One of the keys to a 3-man backline is having at least one defender with the speed/agility to play fullback in 4-4-2 since he has to cover a lot of ground on his side if the defensive midfield is bypassed by a long punt forward. Sweden bypassed the twin-d-mid stack vs. the US by lobbing the ball over them to Zlatan, who was often "isolated" against Onyewu and Bocanegra and even that was way too dangerous because Bornstein was usually out of position to give cover to Boca and Ibrahimovic found himself with a lot of space to run into.

    Now imagine a 3-man line with Boca and Parkhurst/Demerit 25 yards away from Onyewu after a long-range punt over the defensive midfield. Gooch would be toast.

    Peckerman thought he could do this because Burdisso on the right, Ayala in the middle and Heinze on the left had enough range and size to prevent both types of attack and, in front of them, Mascherano and Cambiasso jumped on every possible outlet.

    But the US defensive midfield usually doesn't press the passer beyond 40-45 yards away from own goal and a good team will connect on long bombs often enough to punish the 3-man backline.

    PS. The other side to the Argentine success at the WC was the fact that it was a "high possession" side. With their ball skills, they could sit on the ball without having to go to the own half and while still presenting danger to their opponents. Vs. Germany, they had a huge edge in terms of ball control.

    As it is in the NFL, it's much harder to score when you don't have the ball and the Argentines knew how to kill the game when they were ahead.
     
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OK, to summarize, YOU understand the tactic, but Bradley is incapable of it. Gotcha.
     
  16. Bigrose30

    Bigrose30 Member+

    Sep 11, 2004
    Jersey City, NJ
    Did you see Mullan in any of Houston's games against Pachuca?

    For the kind of motor, fittness, and tackling ability needed for the wingback spot, I think Mullan would be perfect. If he keeps up this form, I think he'll be in the mix for qualifying.

    Since all of our players are never available at the same time, I guess it's hard to decipher who is actually in BB's plans.
     
  17. Adam Zebrowski

    Adam Zebrowski New Member

    May 28, 1999
    parkhurst has the highest soccer iq of any american defender, and if onyewu and clark are on the pitch, i think his size can be overcome...

    his distribution from the back is better than any other center back too...

    as to bradley, i don't see him being the dummy some suggest....

    while he's princeton smart, he has his street smarts too
     
  18. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    I know you're just being an ass because you like being one.

    But the point being - if, for example, someone overstacks one side of midfield, would Bradley be able to teach his players where to cover?

    In Copa America, his players made a ton of tactical mistakes (when they lost their markers, misplayed the offside trap, didn't track runners, et cetera, et cetera), so Bob's coaching must have not have taken root.

    And I will remind you that those mistakes took place out of the very predictable 4-4-2 "Empty Bucket", a formation with which his players were well familiar since most MLS teams use on an everyday basis.

    Aside New England and Nowak's DCU teams, no one in MLS has used the 3-5-2 and, I'll point out again, that was a simpler "straight" version of the formation, not the German/Argentine 4-4-2/3-5-2 hybrid, which is far more complicated to play on both ends of the field.

    So, if you think that the US players will adopt to a formation that they have not played for a coach that has never practiced it, then .... uh, I think you're remarkably wrong.
     
  19. Kevin8833

    Kevin8833 Member

    Jun 18, 2007
    Estero, FL
    Then why can't we use the "straight" version of the 3-5-2 what is so wrong in that?
     
  20. Dr Jay

    Dr Jay BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 7, 1999
    Newton, MA USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Far as I can tell, my son's D3 college team is going to the 4-4-2/3-5-2 hybrid under a new coach. I'll see after a few games how its going and if things look positive, I'll recomment the coach make an appt with Bradley to teach him the details.

    I suspect the US internationals may have a briefer learning curve than these college kids, though. Maybe they could pick it up after a camp or two.:rolleyes:
     
  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've tried, successfully I believe, to cut down. But sometimes, there's no way to engage a poster without being kind of a jackass. Like, for example, if said poster is an arrogant, ignorant twat.

    You're apparently unaware of the role of a national team coach. Not to mention, I'm sure he could manage it.

    I highlighted the key word there.


    I highlighted another error you made. Some MLS teams run with 3 defenders, and many others play with a Gomez/Marinelli/DeRosario type central mid. Some teams might pair a DM with a 2 way player like Toja, but 2 DMs, a Bradley-Mastroenni type pairing, is rare in MLS.

    But that wasn't your original point, now was it? You were saying Bradley wasn't capable of coaching it. Now you're saying that the players aren't smart enough to figure it out.

    Agendas, no matter how passionately felt, don't trump facts.
     
  22. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    :D :cool:
     
  23. mtizzle

    mtizzle Member

    Jun 12, 2006
    Conshohocken
    Let the loud screaming swordfight BEGIN! Jeez, a couple of heavy hitters going at it.
     
  24. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Its absurd for anybody on this board to think they know more then Bradley. HE IS THE FRICKEN NATIONAL TEAM COACH! He is not some AYSO coach who does not know anything about formations.

    Argentina was able to transition and attack with 5 players every attack because they had a lot better players then we did. They are used to playing a 4-4-2 box mid.

    I dont think the 3-5-2 fits the US team because against top teams 3 in the back wont cut it. Right now we should play a 4-4-2 but in the future I see us going a 4-5-1 (4-2-3-1).

    I do agree with the topic switching players to have an edge against other teams is a great idea. Parkhurst would be great for the US vs Brazil because of his positioning. I really think Gooch and Boca together will going to get burned
     
  25. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    When your son's D3 college team plays this formation against Brazil, let me know.

    If you talked this way to me in person, I'd probably break half of you ribs ... then eat them with some BBQ sauce and perform some celebratory dance while your wife is watching.

    He is a coach but a poor one.

    So, no... I don't think he could manage. Bob's not competent enough to go beyond the "Empty Bucket" and he can't coach that well either.


    And by some, you mean one MLS team. New England runs a straight 3-5-2. No one else does.

    No. I am sticking to the point that Bradley isn't good enough to teach it.

    That fact will only get exacerbated by the unfamiliarity with that system of the players involved.

    What facts?

    A hypothetical 3-5-2?

    It is what it is - a theory to be tested.
     

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