Democrats: Buying Mideast oil gives cash to dictators

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Scarecrow, Jan 20, 2007.

  1. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Red Card

    Feb 13, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We are fortunate to have a wonderful news service like CNN.

    Nice words from the Dems, but now lets see what they actually do to try and make it happen.

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/20/Dems.radio.ap/index.html

    He proposes a good start, but I would prefer to see the Govt. create an energy dept. along the lines of NASA that would be mandated to come up with an energy source that would remove our dependence on oil.
     
  2. DJPoopypants

    DJPoopypants New Member

    But that means big government...?

    You propose an interesting idea, a real energy agency.

    But I am also wary of it. The biggest difference between a NASA and a new energy agency is that there are loads of competing technologies anmd resources vying to be the ones chosen and used. And there is no inherently scientific way to say one is better than another, because each involve tradeoffs to society (coal can be cheap, but is the physically and environmentally ugliest, some biodiesel would just destroy more of the earth's environment, etc)

    One example would be the farm lobby - who will be all over it plugging ethanol (ie, more money sent to farmers). And trying to get friendly people placed high in the organization.

    You can certainly see where this can get derailed into a huge boondoggle.

    NASA on the other hand, while it could make/break aerospace companies, had much less potential to destroy more of the earth as a consequence of lobbyists and self-interest, well intentioned or not.
     
  3. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    The also have less of a chance of getting anything accomplished. I mean, NASA still sends a shuttle with a 30 year old design into space. Who's still driving an AMC Rambler?
     
  4. MattR

    MattR Member+

    Jun 14, 2003
    Reston
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Technologically speaking, even the most heavily engineered internal cumbustion engine is just a fancy rambler.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambler_American

    In fact, the AMC Rambler got BETTER GAS MILAGE than most cars available today.


    So what you're saying, is that all the technological advances in the last, say, 30+ years has resulted in worse fuel economy? I think we need some legislation that makes fuel economy a stated goal of technology development.
     
  5. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Apples and Dinkleberries.

    For that to be even close you need to compare the Rambler to the Toyota Prius (60 city/51hwy)
     
  6. If only the Toyota Prius was a suitable replacement for the majority of American's driving needs.
     
  7. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    What, you can't haul dead buffalo in your Prius?
     
  8. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a replacement for the Rambler. That's all I was saying.
     
  9. Hell, you can't even hide more than 1 terrified cheerleader in the trunk.

    I know, I've tried.
     
  10. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Red Card

    Feb 13, 2004
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know what you mean about big govt. and I hate that aspect as well. I do think though that energy is a National issue and as such should be handled with an Energy Dept. of course ideally it would work in synergy with the private industry, but lets be honest the private industry isn't all that trustworthy either.
     
  11. Claymore

    Claymore Member

    Jul 9, 2000
    Montgomery Vlg, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We've been having this discussion for the better part of 35 years now.
     
  12. And sadly, neither party wants to do anything about it because the GOP gets their money from BigOil and the Dems get their money from BigAuto, neither of which wish to see any change in the status quo.
     
  13. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    The goal should be complete energy independence (or at the very least, dependence only on trustworthy countries--Canada, UK, Mexico, Norway, etc) within 5 years. That means a long-term solution of seriously researching alternative energies but it also means a short-term solution of ethanol, coal, and nuclear energy. It's simply mind-boggling to me that no-one in Washington sees a problem with being dependent on Mideast countries and Venezuela for our energy needs. Get self-reliant and then tell them to go screw themselves.
     
  14. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Big Auto aint that big anymore. Their numbers have been dwindling for some time now. Sure, they still swing some clout, but it's nothing like it used to be.
     
  15. DJPoopypants

    DJPoopypants New Member

    Keep your friends close...and your enemies closer.

    Remember - there is no more powerful corrupting agent in the current world than the US dollar. Or a steady stream of US dollars.

    If you establish a country based on that flow of US dollars....what would happen when those dollars dry up? We need them, but they need us too. Nobody wants to be a Cuba.

    Sure foreign leaders can rant and rave (like Hugo), but perhaps they are like a rock, their socialist ideals slowly being eroded by the water dripping from above. It may take decades and might not be pretty, but eventually there will be someone in power that is completely beholden to the US...
     
  16. MasterShake29

    MasterShake29 Member+

    Oct 28, 2001
    Jersey City, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you want a real solution to the problem, then you want government as far away from your problem as possible.

    That said, there is room for a reasonable energy policy. Removal of any and all oil corporate welfare would be a start.

    Shrinking our millitary / leaving Iraq would be a good help as well. I wonder how much oil the millitary uses. It must be a bunch.

    And allowing expanded drilling in the United States would also help.
     
  17. Much less than the daily idle along for a commute into/outof LA.
     
  18. BigAuto still has it BigUnion cousin helping out, though much of the problem they have caused is why we are here.

    We couldn't start building smaller, more efficient engines, like the Japanese, because that would put people out of work. Strangely, Japanese Automakers found it not only possibly, but profitable to build not only utilitarian small efficient cars, but cars that were "big enough" for the American market that are much more efficient than the majority of their domestic competitors.
     
  19. MattR

    MattR Member+

    Jun 14, 2003
    Reston
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, I find it increasingly likely that the REASON we are dependant on foreign oil is because of the US Government that, for the last 50 years, has taken over countries, handed out corporate welfare, and supported ME dictators at the request of Big Oil.

    If the government stops supporting big oil, or supports oil alternatives at the same rate, perhaps some progress could be made.

    Hell, if localities raised the gas tax high enough to pay for all the new roads and transportation we need, people might get the idea to move off of the stuff.

    Also, bring back the glass bottle and much less packaging!
     
  20. MattR

    MattR Member+

    Jun 14, 2003
    Reston
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    No, I can compare the Rambler to the most popular cars sold in America today:

    1964 AMC Rambler American
    440 6-cylinder
    28 MPG

    2007 Toyota Camry
    268hp V6 Cylinder
    31 MPG

    2007 Honda Accord
    244 V6
    29 MPG

    2007 Chevy Malibu
    217hp V6
    32 MPG

    2007 Chrysler 300
    250 hp
    27 MPG

    2007 Ford Fusion
    221 hp
    28MPG

    So, basically, a typical 4-door car gets about 28-30, 43 years after a 4-door sedan got about 28-30 MPG.

    So how much longer are we going to wait for "the market" and "the industry" to embrace the change we all agree is needed?
     
  21. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When you said Big Auto, I thought you were including Big Union (UAW), which has been taking significant hits in their ranks and will continue to do so. They're a dying breed. As the Big Three continue to slash production, suppliers are slipping to the way side. We freak because we hear such staggering negative numbers coming from the car manufacturers that we seldom consider the impact all of this has on the small domestic suppliers who's workforce tends to be unionized as well.
     
  22. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Interesting article in the WSJ:

    Cheap Gas Worries Auto Makers

    Summer seems a long way off, and it's not just because it's finally snowing in Michigan. The price of regular unleaded gasoline is suddenly back below $2 a gallon around the Motor City, and that has General Motors Corp. Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner worried.

    "With the price of oil at its lowest level in 19 months, we run the risk of reverting back to our traditional energy policy," Mr. Wagoner said in a speech at the Automotive News World Congress in Dearborn, Mich., last week. "That is, relying on the lowest-cost energy available on world markets (including imported oil), without providing adequate support for developing alternative sources."

    When the head of the world's largest car maker -- and the leading marketer of large sport-utility vehicles in America -- complains that oil is too cheap, you know the U.S. energy debate is headed in a new direction.

    ...


    Perhaps there is hope for us.
     
  23. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    This Gov. Schweitzer should run for President.
     
  24. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    How true - its hardly even worth the effort if you can't scare the second one with what you've done to her friend.
     
  25. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Not buying Mideast oil simply means China gets to buy it, and the terrorists won't stop hating us just because it's mostly China that is creating and propping up the tyrannical dictators.

    What we should do is use nothing but Mideast oil. First, it means we take it before they industrialize enough to use it themselves. Second, we take oil that would be going to China and India instead of the US. Third, it will take the Middle East to the oil downturn quicker, and once they lose oil revenue they lose power and turn their hate to each other.
     

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