My dad visited South Africa on business back in April. He said that a local told him that in some areas of Johannesburg it is better to just drive through red lights than to stop. I think it clearly can be more dangerous there than anywhere in the US. Probably good advice to travel with a group though. By the way, he visited a place called Stellenbosch, which is not very far inland from Cape Town. It would probably be a great place to visit for anyone interested in going to wine country. It's also a university town. A quick google image search shows that it is in quite a beautiful area. http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=stellenbosch&btnG=Search+Images
My Uncle lives in Pretoria and works at the US Embassy. They never stop at Stop signs or red lights at night, if they do, they have about a 90% chance of getting car jacked. South Africa, from what I hear from family members who live there, is not the safest place and is much more dangerous than the USA, even the shady parts of the major US cities. South Africa will never be able to organize the event and when they try and do run the event, everyone who goes should expect delays and problems from the word go.
Much of what people are saying about the South African WC are the same thigns they said about Greece. Yet Greece ran a very successful Olympics (with the one Marathon incident to be sure). As for crime, the streets will be flooded not just with cops but I suppose the army. I have accidentally been in parts of Rome or Paris were hard looking men realized I was in the wrong place, it can happen anywhere. Mexico City has crime problems, yet they pulled off the WC twice.
Mexico City hosted the World Cup twice BEFORE crime exploded. It would be harder now. But Mexico City is practically crime-free compared to any big city in South Africa. The Greek Olympics were a disaster. Bob Costa was on TV with every excuse he could think of for why the venues were almost completely empty. A reporter looking into allegations of massive corruption involving construction companies controlled by the husband of Gianna Angelopoulos-Daskalaki narrowly survived an assassination attempt. Yet Athens is a fairly safe city, infinitely safer than any big city in South Africa. I have never been to Stellenbosch but I hitched through there, snagging a ride in nearby Paarl on the way to Jo’Burg. Yes, it is beautiful country and Stellenbosch is one of the safer small towns in the vast country. But how do you get there? The trains that run from Cape Town pass through some horrible neighborhoods with crime on and around the trains. Plus you don’t just walk around Stellenbosch at night unless you have excellent life insurance. You have to take a cab everywhere and they get robbed too. Stellenbosch is also famous-or infamous- as the site of the Stellenbosch Conference in 1947, where D.F. Malan and others codified the policy of apartheid. Keep in mind that the World Cup is NOT in Stellennbosch, and Cape Town is only one of the venues. The games will be played in or near high crime areas. One of the stadiums in the Jo’burg region is in one of the most infamous “no-go” areas of Jo’burg and that is really saying something. There are many police in South Africa but they are not always interested in responding to reports of rape and murder. If you follow the South African press you know that it is going down the drain fast. Crime and corruption are leading the way. You don’t hear much about this in the US press because it was not supposed to happen. There was a lot of optimism after the cruel apartheid policy was set aside and relatively free elections held. But that doesn’t mean that it will evolve into the “liberal democracy” apologists” keep prattling on and on about. Don’t take my word for it. Barrack Hussein Obama was in South Africa last year and said some of the same things I am saying, alienating himself from Health Minister Manto Tshabalala-Msimang, who says that AIDS can be cured by eating garlic and African potato. That is the Health Minister talking. The FA is worse. Until recently, the FA did not even keep statistics on its domestic league. When South Africa hosted a World Cup qualifier a few years ago the FA had forgotten to put flags in the corners of the pitch and had to borrow flags from supporters to start the game. When FIFA sent a team to South Africa a year ago to meet with the 2010 Organizing Committee, they had quite a surprise. There was no 2010 Organizing Committee. A Kaiser Chiefs match 5 years ago was oversold by 20,000 tickets, leading to a stampede where many died.
Then again, in 1970 Mexico was practically a dictatorship (there were massacres of student protestors right before the 1968 Olympics. And in 1986,. Mexico was not exactly a free country either. Dictatorships generally do not have a crime problem as the government itself is criminal. I really do not remember Costas making any excuses. In fact, generally, Costas during any Olympics broadcast just sits there looking terribly constipated. Trains generally run through horrible neighborhoods -- who wants to live next to a train line? Reminds me of some places in New York, pre-Giuliani. So I guess soccer fans who are also BNP members will head there on a side trip. Sort of like the 1994 WC when they played games in Detriot. I hope they do something about that. I am a liberal democracy apologist. It is easy to prevent crime in non-liberal democracies if you do not have to worry about due procees and the like. South Africa is not perfect, but I would rather live there than say Zimbabwe or Algeria, or frankly, just about anywhere else on the continent with the exceptions of Bostwana, Ghana and maybe Senegal. So, we have US government officials that think the earth is 6000 years old. They sound almost like the USSF from 20 years ago. Back in the 1990s, Las Vegas was hosting the CONCACAF Champion's CUp and they mispainted the lines on the field. Something they seem to have rectified. And how many times did that happen in the UK before they finally made the necessary changes to stop it? See you in South Africa. My only concern is how am I going to keep a 5 year old happen on a plane for 20 hours?
hey man, good luck. i'll just assume you're casually brushing off all the reports of sa crime to have some good ol' fun on bs, which is fine by me. but for your 5 year olds sake, you should consider that a trip to sa might warrant more safety considerations than a trip to say, detroit. i'm still planning on going, but i'm also hoping things improve over the next few years.
I was thinking my dad flew directly there from Cape Town, but surely not, as this site says that the closest airport is Cape Town, which is just a 45 minute drive away, so I guess by car to answer your question. http://www.travelcreek.com/stellenbosch.htm Here is the official site for Stellenbosch Tourism: http://www.stellenboschtourism.co.za/ Unfortunately, it has "coming soon" under the 'Getting Here' page, but there is a road map under the 'Maps and Routes' page. I'm definitely taking a 'wait and see' approach to transportation generally. They have supposedly allocated a lot of money to the task of improving rail transportation prior to the world cup, but I suspect that the only routes that will be getting significant upgrades are the ones going between the venues, and even with those, who knows...
Doesn't matter for me. Crime, no crime. 17 hour direct flight, or 32 hour scenic route. I'll be at the World Cup in 2010 - no matter where it is.
No World Cup game was ever played in Detroit. The Pontiac Silverdome is outside of Detroit, in a fairly safe community. People all over the world like to live close to trains. It is reflected in real estate values. Japan, Canada, Germany and many other nations have extensive rail systems without crime and banditry like in South Africa. Hey, believe what you want you to believe, and the New York Times sure wants you to believe that crime in South Africa is no worse than anywhere else. But that is no more accurate than anything else in the newspaper so believe it at your own peril. Last year, the South Africans observed the anniversary of the Soweto Uprising with a special ceremony at the high school that marked the epicenter of the uprising. The ceremony did not involve the usual ANC celebration, including that horrible song Zuma and Mbeki always sing at such rallies. (Kill the ****, kill the ****). Instead, the high school students organized a protest to the crime wave, claiming the country had conquered apartheid only to be destroyed by an avalanche of crime. Fox New did not say a word, although it sure said a lot about Soweto over the last 20 years. Protests about Soweto’s crime wave did not comply with Fox’s fake “news” script, so they ignored it...
OK -- point taken. But lots of stadia are built in otherwise bad areas -- the cops respond by flooding thr zone on game days (e.g., the area around Yankee Stadium was quite bad during the 80s so the police were always out in force). I never said it was a crime free utopia, or that it had no problems. In fact, quite the opposite. My point is that given the police will be working overtime (and am sure having the army to back them up) the areas around the stadia will be the safest places on the planet on game days. Well, I am glad they are protesting -- that is the right now in a free and democratic South Africa. If Giuliani is unsuccessful in the primaries, maybe he might head over there for some more Giuliani Time -- that will clean things up real quick. Considering that Fox News is only 10 years old, I guess they did not say much, though to be truthful, I watch CNN.
Giulani would be sure to make things worse. I think South African stadiums would be safe on game day. There might be some pickpockets but violent crime would be kept low by security. But what about the rest of the time? how about getting from city to city, or drinking at night? How about getting out of the airport into the city without getting mugged? It is a recipe for a massacre. The army? Half of the South African army today is HIV positive. How many will still even be around in 2010 no matter how much African potato they eat?
Thomas, as a native of the New York region, just remember, it is ALWAYS Giuliani time. But my point Iguess is that for that month long period, South Africa as a whole will be safer. Yes, there will be lots of pick pockets. But that is in every tourist area (Technically, Vatican City has the world's highest crime rate because of all the pick pockets). Pickpockets don't worry me. As for the rest, stay out of bad areas at night. Well, they will just ave to recruit more.
No, but Detroit's Comerica Field had droves of police (city, state, sheriffs, federal, etc.) for the World Series and Ford Field have even more public safety officials for the upcoming Super Bowl. Granted, Detroit seemingly tore down a lot of abandoned buildings and crime has dipped. It's still far from the safest of US inner cities. www.superbowl.com/features/detroit
agreed. tho, i think i might be a bit responsible since i said a trip to sa warranted far more safety considerations than a trip to detroit. see, i was trying to say that even though many people think detroit is unsafe, south africa.... ah crap. forget it...
This is a good point. Sure the stadium areas on game days will be safe, but what about the rest of the trip? In Germany I was in several situations where I didnt have to worry because of the state of Germany but if I was in South Africa I would have been dead for sure. For example I arrived by train the first night at 3 AM and had to walk a kilometer to the apartment of my friends who had come a week early for US-Czech. This was alone in the middle of the night, lugging 50 pounds of important luggage. Or going to Frankfurt Fanfest alone when my friends didnt feel like going out. How are fans supposed to just get to and from the safe areas in the immediate vicinity of the stadiums. Come to think of it, the FanFests (which were almost as fun as the games) if they happen at all won't be anywhere near as convenient and fun as Germany. So we're supposed to spend 3 times as much as we did for Germany to go to a few games and spend the rest of the time hiding in a locked hotel room and praying we don't get jumped on the way to the airport, to the train station, or the restaurant (or in any such place)? More power to the people who will still go (you'll probably be able to scalp a ticket to any match you want because demand will be very low) but I don't have that money and I don't want to die at 23. I'll hold my hopes that it will be moved or wait till 2014.
So....South Africa is still a major tourist destination. Like in most places the crime rates can't just be extended to tourists because they largely safer areas etc... For example when the crack epidemic made DC the murder capital of the US (not that I'm comparing crime levels in DC and Jo'burg) it wasn't like it also became an incredibly dangerous place to travel to. I know lots of people (including my roomate) who've travelled to SA and loved it. None of you are pointing to stories of tourists getting murdered/raped etc.. at a particularily scary rate. Obviously you won't enjoy the same freedom of movement as in Germany. But there's no reason to blow it out of proportion and "imprison" yourself in your hotel room. Frankly, even though it would obviously be cheaper and easier for me, I think it would be a great tragedy if the games were relocated to the US. I think that alot of FIFA's noises are really just to get the SA government moving. Plus, IMHO SA will be a fascinating place to visit, frankly alot of us could benefit from going somewhere that's not basically the US with better public transportation and beer.
I agree with you that South Africe would be a fascinating place to visit and I am sure I would come away with an enlightened view of life in a very different place than I have ever visited. My first World Cup was last year in Germany and sure I went because I am a soccer fan and wanted to experience the soccer atmosphere but the most enjoyment I had was meeting people from all over the world in a safe environment. I never once had to worry that if I wandered off the beaten path that I would ventured into a unsafe area. From what I gather on this website and from other sources that would not be the case in South Africa. If I do end up deciding to attend the World Cup in South Africa I will have to drastically change my approach. Adding to equation is that I would want to take my son (he would be 15 in 2010) as he was not able to join me in Germany. I might risk my safety but never his.
Some of the overreactions on this thread are downright hilarious. Can South Africa be a dangerous place? Of course - it's Africa, where the infrastructure is not nearly as good as many other parts of the world. There's a high murder rate, violent crime, and there are other things (disease, viruses, etc) that you have to be careful about. But to say that you're going to get murdered by going to the World Cup is a Chick Little response and totally irrational. Many, many tourists visit S. Africa every year with few, if any, hassles. You will not have to stay holed up in your hotel room, and if you're going to, don't waste the money to make the trip. How many of you went to Germany without any problems? Were you killed by neo-Nazi thugs or nationalist hooligans? I've heard plenty of stories about them too, and I didn't have any sort of a problem at all. Shit happens everywhere. Is it more likely to happen in SA? Probably, but you will in all likelihood be fine. S. Africans are very warm, friendly people, and it will be an incredible experience for all those who are not scared off by all the hype. It's sad, really, how easily Americans are scared re: travel. Just get out there and do it. There's more safety in numbers and we should be represented well in 2010.
It is perfectly rational to be concerned about safety in South Africa. You can’t compare it to Germany.. I hitch-hiked across South Africa after getting robbed in Cape Town. When I got to the Jo’burg youth hostel I told the warden that it seemed like a nice city. She said: “Wait until you get mugged.” (I had already been robbed). It was in the Hillbrow District, and you can’t even go near there now. I have a scar on my leg from a cut I got while being robbed at knife point in Nairobi. The Lonely Planet book, terrified of accusations of political incorrectness, didn’t mention that some areas of Nairobi are very dangerous. All they had to do was mention the crime situation and urge caution. But oh no, they printed PC propaganda and travelers had to find out the hard way. The same is true now with the US controlled media. South Africa was supposed to blossom after the cruel apartheid system ended. It wasn’t supposed to devolve into the most crime-ridden country in the world. So the media ignores it. I urge the sceptics to check the South African press. South Africa, to its credit, has a free press, and allows all kinds of blogs and alternative media They even allow Afrikaaners to crow about the good old days. The police leave them alone and don’t arrest them. All areas of the world are not the same when it comes to crime. Some are very safe. Some are very dangerous. South Africa is very dangerous. For the umpteenth time, Cape Town is only ONE of the venues. Parts of Cape Town are OK during daylight hours and that is where the tourists are. They aren’t in Limpopo trying to find the hotel. The Jo’Burg area alone has many World Cup venues and I fail to see how all these naïve and possibly drunk foreign fans are going to get in and out of the place without major incidents. Its up to you but remember to be careful For heavens sake don’t put any credence in what the US media says about this. The media have been lying to us for 45 years and the New York Times is the biggest liar of them all. Just my opinions.
i think this kind of forum makes peoples opinions come across as more extreme than they probably are in reality. most of us know that the chances of having a statistically incident free wc2010 in south africa is likely pretty good. but we also know we can't ignore the fact that there are more horror stories and "warnings" regarding south africa than any other host country in recent memory, so it's a good idea to keep an eye on things. a trip to sa won't be as carefree as a trip to germany or south korea, but neither will it be anywhere like a trip to iraq.
Exactly. While I appreciate the dangers that will be present in S. Africa, I also hope that people aren't dissuaded from going by the potential threat.