What is Wrong With Some People?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Chicago1871, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. oman

    oman Member

    Jan 7, 2000
    South of Frisconsin
    I find it very interesting how you can take a not too profound idea -- that both Muslim and Christian history have been vioent and harmful to others. Take a few radio phone calls, look at a somewhat loaded poll question, and then freak out about this huge number of Americans who might be dangerous.

    There is nothing that indicates that people are going to act in any way on the beliefs you claim they expouse in the poll.

    Hence, while I would view with great alarm a bill that tries to ban Muslims from entering our country, I would view with mild trepidation a poll response that, given that it is Muslims who have called for the Great Satan US to be destroyed and Muslims who actually blew up the towers, shows a Muslim bias.

    I view a poll answer like that as simply a reflection of the US general xenophobia, and not a patholical desire to harm people who they live and work with. I agree that the idea above that if there actually were more high profile Muslims throughout all parts of our society these types of poll answers would go down.

    But this fringe talk is kind of silly. I don't think a fringe of the US is xenophobic. I think more than half of us could get a lot by more travel and more understanding of other cultures. But being naive, even prejudiced about other cultures or religions does not mean when the rubber meets the road that half of us turn into skinheads. That's simply not borne out by the evidence of our recent history. Americans are foolish and awkward and slow, but when faced with a real human conflict and skin and bones, I think they are ultimately accepting of those with different backgrounds.

    All of us here flew on planes in the aftermath of the bombings and all us did double takes when we had to sit next to young Muslim men. But did we throw them off the plane? Were we openly hostile? No. Because deed down we know what is right, even though we sometimes let the anonymity of a poll get the better of us.

    What do you want, a rubdown and a petticure to prove I am not a racist? Well you ain't gonna get it.
     
  2. vivzig

    vivzig New Member

    Oct 4, 2004
    The OC
    Repped.
     
  3. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you're taking the word bigotry to mean outright hate and discrimination, whereas I'm using it to mean someone who is intolerant of others' beliefs, religion, lifestyle, etc. Going by that the Republican party definitely fits the bill, but then again, so do most political groups in the US (party affiliation or no); and that is a sad statement.
     
  4. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Uh, even rabid conservatives have disavowed Prager's position on this.
     
  5. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    Next time someone writes that 51% of Americans would never ever vote to nuke another country I'll have to remember this thread.
     
  6. Mountainia

    Mountainia Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    Section 207, Row 7
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's cool. Actually, I hadn't heard of this issue until I read this thread. Then I saw that article in the online Washington Post. Turns out another thread in this forum centers on that issue.

    I thought it a surprising opinion, especially for someone involved with the memorial to the Holocaust.

    I once served on a Federal Grand Jury, and witnesses would swear on the book of their choice, or no book. The important act was that by swearing to tell the truth, and then lying, you were committing perjury, so the swearing in part was more than just for show.
     
  7. PsychedelicCeltic

    PsychedelicCeltic New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    San Francisco/London
    You mean I can go under oath at a federal hearing with my hand on some Iceberg Slim?

    Holy shit that is awesome!
     
  8. Mountainia

    Mountainia Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    Section 207, Row 7
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, to tell you the truth, no. You cannot bring in your own books; you cannot even bring in your own lawyer (although you may have one outside, and you can consult with your lawyer at any time.)

    Witnesses had to raise one hand, and the other hand would either stay at their side, or be placed on one of the books we had. We had a Hindu once, and held out a Bible. Oops. She just kept her hand at her side and we put the Bible back down.
     
  9. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    I never claimed they were.
     
  10. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hanover
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'd like to differenciate: In some cases they are, in some cases they are not. Ever travelled with a muslim to the US? It's not funny to wait at the airport for one and a half hours because your friend was interrogated simply for the fact that his parents are from Jordan (he had a German passport).
    At the other hand us Europeans clash more often with the muslims, for a number of reasons (for example because of sheer number, because of the level of education, etc).
     
  11. art

    art Member

    Jul 2, 2000
    Portland OR
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Matt, nothing the ELF espouses could lead to genocide. The extremity of their platform should it come to pass would amount to less human habitation and exploitation of wild places. Who does this hurt, except economically.

    You cant focus on the technicality of saying "there's no one who would specifically advocate tatooing id's on muslims, so this isnt an issue". First, you dont know what someone might advocate someday were the conditions right. Mostly though you have to look at it in a broader sense, as evidence that a relatively decent percentage of the US populace believes that being muslim means you want to blow up americans, therefore we need to do what we can to separate the muslims and make sure they're watched, etc. There's a short path from there to all out genocide. this opinion is certainly reflected in a percentage of our political leadership, somewhere, somehow, and it is the duty of every person IMO to fight that tooth and nail to prevent those people from gaining real power and effecting real people with their frankly evil ideals. It doesent matter how remote the possibility seems. I'm sure many german jews in the 20's and 30's never thought things would get so bad for them.

    I'll be th first to admit that the chances of out and out genocide are exraordinarily remote at best and probably over the top. But I personally dontwant to risk being wrong about that, so will always argue that this sort of ignorance must be condemned no matter how trivial it seems.
     
  12. oman

    oman Member

    Jan 7, 2000
    South of Frisconsin
    But that being said, it IS a bit funnier than getting rolled by a group of skinheads.
     
  13. scarshins

    scarshins Member

    Jun 13, 2000
    fcva
    I think he can.

    Affirmations have been given on all sorts of texts, religious and not; but if you bring in a copy of "Mad Magazine" the judge may not think you are giving an honest affirmation/oath.
     
  14. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hanover
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Didn't argue that. But I am pretty sure that this happens to every muslim who travels to the US, whereas you can hardly say that every muslim living in Europe has been beaten up by Nazis.
    In the US we have a systematical hinderense and suspision about every muslim being a terrorist. In Europe I would say that the general attitude towards muslims is better, comparable to the blacks and the Hispanics in the US, but not to the American muslims. That's two different kinds of problems. Now, if you are lucky you propably have a better live in Europe, but if your unlucky you end up being beaten up and so on.
     
  15. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    That is simply false, I can almost guarantee you that the average Muslim in the US has a far higher standard of living than the average Muslim in Europe
     
  16. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, 66% of Americans think nobody - including the US - should be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.

    Generally, the American people are good people, with good values. But - like lots of populations - they are vulnerable to well-crafted propaganda. And there is a heck of a lot of it out there.

    I was doing some research for this thread, and shortly after 9/11 anti-Muslim sentiment was actually extremely low. The only explanation I have is that Dubya stood up and said "Islam is a religion of peace" in just about every public appearance he made. He has since stopped doing so, and the volume of anti-Muslim sentiment has been creeping back upwards.

    What is troubling is that the intensity of the anti-Muslim sentiment is way up. CAIR's reports show that discrimination against Muslims has skyrocketed since 9/11. So while a lot of moderates were forced to examine the issue and decide that, you know, these folk aren't really all that bad, a lot of people went way overboard the other direction.

    Prejudice sucks. Anti-black sentiment was high enough even in the north that nobody complained much about turning firehoses and dogs on protesters, and Kennedy's moves to back civil rights equality were viewed as controversial.
     
  17. ViscaBarca

    ViscaBarca Member

    Mar 26, 2004
    London
    way to completely missing the point...
     
  18. oman

    oman Member

    Jan 7, 2000
    South of Frisconsin

    Oh give me a ********ing break. Your "it happens to everyone" bullshit would be just as nonsensical as someone saying that every muslim gets beat up by Nazis.

    Muslims aren't being hearded into special holding pens at our airports. Anyone who travels knows that's not the case. If your parents were born in Jordan, maybe, just maybe, you might get special treatment. Mabye from Saudi Arabia too. That is a surprise.

    I had some folks in Jamaica ask security to double check me, presumably because may have been hiding a little Arab inside my huge mestizo body. I was there an hour more than I had to be.

    If the twin towers had been blown up by twenty nordic guys that looked like Kirk Douglas with an eyepatch, maybe life at our airports would be different.

    I think we need to look at all aspects of harassment of Muslims in our society, but I just am not going to cry a river over a guy spending an hour extra at the airport. I hate the mantra that 911 changed everything, but you know what -- it damn sure changed our airport security.
     
  19. dfb547490

    dfb547490 New Member

    Feb 9, 2000
    The Heights
    As a 22-year-old male, I believe that anytime I'm not given at least a second look by airport security they are not doing their job. Yes I have pale-ass skin, light brown hair, and blue eyes but so does Jihad Johnny Walker. It would get me concerned if it wasn't for the fact that airport security in the US is a complete joke and almost a mere smoke and mirrors show to start with.

    It's also possible that your friend was behaving suspiciously and that caused him to be singled out. I was standing in line to check in for a flight a year or so ago when some Arab-looking dude in his mid-late 20s wearing a jacket that was a couple sizes too large for him walked up demanding to cut the line, saying he had a flight that he couldn't afford to miss, muttering to himself, giving a very nervous look on his face and generally just behaving suspiciously. Obviously when I got to security I told the lady that she might want to keep an eye out for him and she said that 3 or 4 people had already mentioned the same thing (presumably about the same guy).
     
  20. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    I hope you're not basing your research on stats that CAIR provides.
     
  21. Barbara

    Barbara BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 29, 2000
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    90 minutes of interogation? I think not. Actually, I know not.
     
  22. Mountainia

    Mountainia Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    Section 207, Row 7
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is no judge in a Federal Grand Jury room.

    Witnesses were not permitted to bring in materials of any kind. I don't know if this policy is nationwide, or applies to other Grand Juries, but the one in which I participated did not permit it.

    I'm not sure that if a witness explicitly provided and requested a different text, it would have been disallowed. However, most witnesses were cowed by the whole process, and probably the swearing in process was low on their list of concerns.

    We had a Bible, Torah, and a Koran.
     
  23. Pakalolo

    Pakalolo Member

    Apr 27, 2006
    at home
    :confused:

    [​IMG]
    the country 'right above Italy' only has 10 million inhabitants and is in NO way represantive for the whole of Europe. That's like saying that all Americans are like Texans.

    You just THINK that it's a GIVEN... aha, interesting. Any sources? NO!

    I know that this isn't a represantitive source, but it doesn't underline your claim, quite the opposite. IMO many parts of Europe and the USA are both equally bad when it comes to intolerance against muslims.
    great ending... :rolleyes:
     
  24. oman

    oman Member

    Jan 7, 2000
    South of Frisconsin
    I love you paki.
     
  25. oman

    oman Member

    Jan 7, 2000
    South of Frisconsin
    I wish.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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