With the amount of U-17 soccer players it is very feasible to nominate the best 4 coaches on the nation with four teams playing a series of games, home and visitor, and the coach that come up first in the tornament will have the position. The present sistem of selection is a guarantee for the perpetuation of the coach carrousel.....
I have some big news for you.This is not considered a very desirable job for professional coaches. Move to Florida and coach 14-16 year old amateur boys.Probably for not very big money.
I don't know the history - maybe someone can post the details. Has it ever happened that the U17 coach becomes a "higher-up" in US Soccer? Assistant coach? U-20 coach? U-23 coach? etc...
OK... How about in other countries? Is it common for the U17 coach to be a low-profile position? Or is it a higher profile spot that can lead to serious promotions?
except for the slight problem that Tab Ramos would not move to Florida for next to no money to coach amateur boys.If a guy like Tab wanted to coach ( I am not sure he does), he could probably do an MLS team.Why would he uproot his family to babysit 15 year olds, most of whom will never be pro players? Nice fantasy though.
Which MLS team is going to hire someone with no coaching experience? Anyway, I doubt Bruce Arena would consider giving this position to someone without any experience. The U-17 National team is a very unique situation. I'd say 99% of the coaches in this country would jump at the opportunity to coach the best young players in this country. It's actually a better position than any of the other youth teams (U-23, U-20, U-18) because they train full-time like a professional club. IIRC, John Ellinger also holds another position with the USSF, something like technical director of youth development. During the past year, the U-17s have hired two full-time assistant coaches in response to the increased number of players training at Bradenton. Both coaches left behind head coaching jobs in college to become assistants to Ellinger. Anyway, the USSF would NOT have any trouble finding someone to fill the position. Do you notice Ellinger isn't in a hurry to jump into MLS? I'd guess he's compensated fairly. Also, Mooch Myernick (current U-23 HC) was a former US U-17 coach. He also served as the U-18 HC and an assistant to Bruce Arena with the U-23s before making the jump to MLS. Uruguay's head coach at the last World Cup had previously coached their U-17s at NZ '99.
I can assure you Ellinger is very well compensated. Not Bruce money, but I'm sure he's getting six figs and he doesn't pay state income tax in Fla. He probably also has a nice little Nike package, too. Ellinger has moved up to some degree already as he was the assistant coach of the last U23/Olympic team under the late Clive Charles. Bob Gansler was U20 coach and moved up to the full national team. And, as davide noted, Mooch coached the 17s and is now coaching the 23s and is a full national team assistant. (Also, Rongen, the U20 coach, is the U23 assistant.) So, there is precedent to move up. A run to the medal round in the Olympics would certainly put Mooch in a good position to replace Arena in three years. As for hiring the best person to coach the 17s, it's a unique position to fill. It needs to be someone who knows how to prepare a team in a professional environment and, ideally, with a pro bakcground, and it needs to be someone with a proven eye for scouting talent at a young age and, most importantly, a track record in dealing with and developing 15-17 year olds. If I were picking someone to replace Ellinger - and I'm not saying he should be replaced, just if there was an opening - I would hire Bobby Clark, the current Notre Dame coach who was a great player in Scotland and who has international and youth national team experience with New Zealand and who has built three different college programs into national powers. Don't know if he'd take it as he has a good gig in South Bend, but he has shown signs of wanderlust - ND is his fourth gig since 1990 - in the past and I would think with the right inducements he could be talked into taking this job.
Interesting thread. Ellinger's past history mentioned by another coach to me in passing who does not think he is very good for a National team coach. "Hack was not very successful with his college team, GK coach is US occer staff coach?" I think he should be replaced. When coaches coach there team in games they look for their own teams weaknessses. Some one else looks for the opponents weaknesses. If he looked at his own team like this when his team loses a game. He had to see the backs can not hold the ball even for a few passes under pressure, until they can make the break out pass. A national team that can't do that is a disgrace. The team can not isolate Adu by their off ball movement. So he can touch the ball in relatively free space so he can go 1 v1 or 1 v 2. When the team loses the ball the players are not good wining the ball. They can only just knock it away from the dribbler then they watch the ball instead of moving to win that ball. So the opponent gets the ball back by their back support players. If a dangerous player is on the flank with this team and the pressure is moving to him. He stays in the killed space. So what happens? Some one will switch the field into less pressure space. This is the right thing to do but, what happens to that dangerous player on the flank. He doesn't see the ball and can disappear from the game. He should have been taught that when he see's pressure comming to him to leave that space and move into less pressure space so he can get more touches. You want good players to get a lot of touches. he can even get a touch when team mate reverse the field. He doesn't teach then that because they don't do it. When they leave his team they don't do it. They have to learn it later why is that? Examples Donovan goes to the Olympic when the recently deceasd Clive Charles had the team. Charles played Donovan at wing. He would get lost in the situation I mention. Charles gave him less playing time because he would disappear. Convey when he first came into the MLS did the same thing. He doesn't get locked into the flank nearly as much anymore. -------- He will not be replaced because people think he did a pretty good job with the players and with that tournament. Hard to believe. Richie
On Tab Ramos as a coach. What makes you think he can coach or has any coaching interest? He was notorious for not helping new players with the Metrostars. Especially that first year he was too into hiis own game to care. Donadoni was the guy who went out of his way to help less experienced players. He was a players player that one.
New Soccer America column on Ellinger In the new Soccer America just received today, Paul Gardner rips into the whole U-17 program and Ellinger, for their dismal showing at the WC. I normally tune out Gardner, but I gotta say some of what he's saying makes sense, especially if Ellinger is going to (as he seems to be doing) suggest that the our team 'played ok' against Brazil. Gardner points out the basic skill differences, and the fact that we were more than just outplayed, we were incredibly outclassed. No link, because I don't think they've posted it yet. I checked.
Bradley is the best Bob Bradley would be my choice. He would have to recuse himself as long as his kid is in residence and... I don't think he would move from Jersey and the family ties there.. he left Chicago to be closer to mom, dad and brothers. Princeton, Asst at DC, Fire and making a lot out of nothing with the Mutts. Great eye for on field talent AND character, demonstrates daily on how to train his teams to deal with holes and come up to level sand above. Has ethics and a deep personal character. Anyone who can keep Jesse Marsch soccer productive for ten years is a wonder.
lol - there's a thread on the board also about how the residency program was just expanded by another 25% - that means they've double the number of players in the system in the past two years. They're throwing money at this; its hard to believe the idea that they wouldn't pay the head coach a very good six figure salary...
Re: New Soccer America column on Ellinger Like Charles, I read Gardner's SA article and like Charles, I usually toon out Gardner's ramblings and dismiss them as the babbling of a bitter, self-loathing Anglo you rarely has anything new and inciteful to say and who is infatuated - dare I say in Catholic priest kind of way - with little brown boys. But... His column from Finland on our 17s was spot-on. I doubt SA will put this online so find a way to get a copy of this issue and read it. (It's the one with the college preview on it.) Among the points he makes: *He calls out Ellinger for saying the US played well against Spain and Brazil when we were clearly outclassed. *The failure to play cohesive soccer and string passes to gether. *He questions what Ellinger and his staff are teaching the kids in Bradenton. *QUestions Ellinger for picking "high energy" players (a quote attributed to Ellinger) but for not picking players with more skill or tactical savvy. *Calls out Ellinger and Asst./GK coach Pete Mellor for not teaching/having the GKs didstribute the ball better rather than boot it upfiled, which Gardner complains Marfuggi did consistently even though the US lost most of those balls. *He then calls out the coaches for blaming losing the balls on the players in the MF. He also pointed out that Marfuggi has little choice as when he got the ball, the defenders backed away from him as if they didn't want the ball. *All of which leads to the dreaded long-ball Route One style of soccer. *He briefly questions whether Ellinger has picked the best players and, as he always does, bangs the drum for more Latin players. *Says if nothing changes in Bradenton we'll be looking at the same kind of team in two years (sans Adu's wizardry). *He says Adu is the real deal but basically says Ellinger has no idea how to coach him, make him better or best utilize him on the field. Says Adu's skills are wasted on a team like this and that not enough was done to get him the ball and that Freddy would have been much more dangerous playing for a more skilled and poessesion oriented-team. *He also seems to think that Freddy will get frustrated playing with pedestrian players like we have in the US, at least at this level, and says that he thinks Adu knows more about what needs to be done when he's on the field than Ellinger does. Like I said, I usually dismiss Gardner but he raises some very good, fair and valid points in this article and they are issues that Dr. Bob, Dan Flynn and Bruce need to think long and hard about in terms of how they are going to address them.
Great post, SM - and thanks for echoing the same sentiments many of us (including you) said during the Dallas Cup. I can't even read five sentences of that guy's work usually but it sounds like he is thinking the "right way" now (scary...). Hopefully this will be enough of a voice of the groundswell to cause an uprooting. Everyone now! Down with Ellinger! Down with Ellinger! Down with Ellinger! hehehe - ok, ok - I get a bit carried away but thanks for the quality post.
Gardner's Article The problem with Paul Gardner is that no matter what the result, his article is the same. Had we beaten Brazil, it would have been despite Ellinger and his high-energy, middle class white boys. That said .... Gardner's key point shouldn't be ignored, no matter the source. Which is - Despite the 2 years' worth of professional training and many, many $ spent on this kids, the U.S. youth team still plays an unambitious style of game. Very direct, counterattacking, no attempt (or seeming ability) to maintain possession against the better teams. With the result being, outshot 58-20 the last 3 games of the tournament. I can understand Bruce Arena coaching this way -- he's gotta deal with the hand that he's dealt. But Ellinger? No, that's not acceptable. He is given the cream of the U.S. youth crop, along with time and $$$. He should be trying to make them play a style of ball that can win the tournament -- and can develop players than can later win the senior World Cup. Not an unambitious, counterattacking style that is, well, good enough to get to the quarterfinals. There is no excuse for spending this much time and money, only to have our main weapon be an 80 yard punt that deflects to Freddy Adu. In that observation, Gardner is spot on.
Well, we've arrived. If it wasn't for the curiousity factor of Adu, the U17 games would have been an obscure event for all but the complete diehards.
OK, I am going to play devil's advocate here. First, I have not read Gardner's article, so he may be right, he may be wrong, he may be somewhere in between. But in the end, he's just a cranky, curmudgeonly johnny-one-note "journalist" (and I use that term very loosely) with a strange fondness for small Hispanic boys. Second, let's keep this in mind. The U17 national team is a YOUTH soccer team. YOUTH. These guys are kids, children even. NONE of them are fully formed players, and there is no way they are going to be fully formed players right NOW. Third, these kids, when faced up with a Spain or a Brazil, are at a natural disadvantage because Bradenton is NOT a professional environment. Try as the Federation might, and the boys at the USSF certainly mean well, there is no way they can create a true professional environment down there. Some of these kids from Spain and Brazil have been in a professional academy environment since they were 12 -- five years of professional training -- versus the two years our guys get at Bradenton, and it’s really not the same kind of training. Why? Because these Spanish and Brazilian kids have had to fight to make the club, fight to make the first team, fight to get playing time, fight to keep on improving. Because if they DON"T do those things, it's bye-bye time at U19 and then nothing left but to get a real, and presumably quite unpleasant, job. There's nothing like going on the field and saying to yourself "if I don't make this a grass-cutting pass to the good foot of my teammate I am going to have go back and work in the factory/farm/junkyard/sawmill just like my Dad" -- well, let me tell you, that's mind focus. These kids are playing 45 intensely competitive matches a year. Every week is another week you have to prove yourself. It’s Darwinian – the weak fall by the wayside, the strong survive. This sensibility is completely absent in our residency program. These guys are plucked out at 15, and they're pretty much in like flint. Oh sure, they’ll add kids at the margin, and subtract some out, but in the end most who start the two-year residency program are sure to finish it. To use the Anson Dorrance phrase, there's no competitive cauldron. And of course, Spain and Brazil have a distinct numbers advantage too. There are three or four hundred kids in the professional academies at 12, 13, 14. We have….THIRTY?? Not enough. So, in other words, it's not the coach's fault that they lose to those kinds of teams. Those teams are way better than us because the whole environment is different. You can’t blame the coach for this. This particular academy approach is the way we have decided to approach out the development of the cream of the crop. Because you see, the program success isn’t measured by how well we can “hang” with Brazil. We’re not going to “hang” with Brazil until we have MLS youth teams that are real professional development tracks. No, the program’s success is measured by the fact that it “produces” over the course of a two-year cycle, 2-3 future senior national teams, a half a dozen serviceable MLS pros. By this measure, Bradenton is successful. And that’s it. Winning the U17 WC is gravy. And we may never taste that gravy. We need to get our expectations in line with reality here. The reality is that MLS is WAY more important as the track for developing a strong senior men’s national pool than Bradenton is. Bradenton is just one method. It makes a contribution. That’s all that it does. Firing Ellinger, and hiring somebody else isn’t going to change this cold reality. So we all better get used to it. Except for Paul Gardner, who seems to hate EVERYTHING about American soccer.
Karl, It's not that we lost. Brazil was amaizing and Spain was very good. It was HOW we lost. We embarised ourselves. Our kids might have much more skill than they showed BUT were never able to show it because of the tactical planning and training. The other teams may have been together for as little as a month of training before the game. They looked much smarter than our players who have been together for a couple of years.
I echo AM's words - it isn't that anyone here is blaming the Bradenton folks; we're saying that Ellinger's coaching tactics are suspect. His choices to play long balls over the top when we played the Newcastle U-19 goons-who-were-each-over-5'10" in the Dallas Cup for the entire game was suspect. You were there - you saw it. I think that's the sort of thing that rankles most of us; not Bradenton as a whole. Of course we know the 300-400 kids in professional club systems against our 30-40 will not win out in our favor. But while we have these kids in competitive tournaments, let's at least give them a chance by putting in a coach that matches their skill levels well against the opponent as well as putting the right kids in with the right formation.
And great post, BTW, Karl. Quality stuff - thanks for taking the time and being so thorough. Its a pleasure to read threads like this one - no flames, trolls, etc...