The Atheist Position

Discussion in 'Spirituality & Religion' started by royalstilton, Dec 17, 2008.

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  1. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was in the shower this morning -- I know...TMI -- and I was wondering what atheists think their role is. Christians mostly understand that they are supposed to be an example of what God in their lives can do to transform someone. Sadly, this isn't always the case. One of the factors involved is that there are so many Christians -- and people who identify themselves as Christians but only go to church and don't try to imitate Jesus' life -- that it is inevitable that some of them will become public spectacles as bad examples of transformed lives. It can run from swindling to adultery to pedophilia to spousal abuse, but the obvious conclusion that anyone can draw is that that particular Christian isn't an example of anything we would consider winsome. If you want your life to be morally purer, you wouldn't imitate Jimmy Swaggert or Jim Bakker.

    Atheists are in a different position, I guess. Do they want people to think that their world-view leads to a more respectable life? Do they care one way or another? If you deny the existence of God, knowing that the existence of God is possible, if not likely, does an atheist care whether people may go to Hell if Hell exists if they ignore God, if he exists, and he could exist, as anyone sensible must acknowledge.

    Does an atheist say to himself, "I don't care that people who are influenced by my thinking may suffer eternal punishment. If they do, that's their problem. I wasn't trying to influence them, anyway."

    Christians -- and there is a wide range of behaviors on this issue -- know that they are partly responsible for telling others that God has a plan for all our lives. God wants us to have what is commonly referred to as "a personal relationship" with Him. Born-again ( and every actual Christian is "born-again", by definition, whether they think in those terms or not ) Christians are probably more cognizant of their responsibility than those whose church experience doesn't emphasize evangelism, but no one is exempt.

    No one becomes a Christian except by the grace of God. My part is to do my level best to be the hand extended to share that grace. How I do that is a product of who I am, my personality, my individual personhood. I can say to God, "I know I'm a mess, but in this area ( and in all others -- but for the sake of the immediate discussion, just the area of reaching out to others ), help me to be your servant, fueled by your Holy Spirit, so that I might show the kind of love and grace you show by your patience toward me/us." Then it's sort of up to me to try to get out of my own way. The Bible says we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It's a process.

    What really sparked this whole discourse is the idea that Life may have a Purpose, and atheists don't seem to have a perspective that includes their individual piece of the puzzle.

    Would one be so vehement about things like nativity scenes and license plates and what it says over the judge's bench ( Ten Commandments, for ex. ) if one imagined that there was a Purpose? It's not like there couldn't be a God or a Purpose or Absolute Truth. We may not think it's likely, but how does intellectual honesty and integrity factor into the equation? Can you say to yourself, "I'm not omniscient, so I am only using my best sense of what's real to parse out the things that matter. Why should I persist in attacking someone else's view of truth when I don't know that there's anything at stake for them if they're wrong, and I know that they are convinced that there is something crucially important for me if they're right?"
     
  2. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Excuse me, but why on earth do you think us mere mortals have some "role" to play in the big, cosmic scheme of things.

    I have several roles. I expect to be a loving and supportive husband and father, a responsible neighbor and member of my local community, a responsible, productive, and informed citizen, a good friend, and a useful member of the workforce.

    I dearly hope to someday have some kind of positive impact on others through writing, whether that be through someday becoming a published writer or simply through blogging and other online endeavors.

    I also expect myself to become more involved in civic and community activism--whether volunteering at the local homeless center or writing letters to my Congressional representatives about Zimbabwe, Darfur, and so on.

    Beyond that, what exactly should I expect my "role" to be? The universe doesn't, as far as I know, have big plans for me.
     
  3. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was going to craft a long, detailed answer, but frankly the entire post shows that you can only perceive the world thru your Christian prism, and are unable to understand how the world looks without that prism (or with a different one). Your hypotheticals really underline it. Let me show you:

    Does a Christian say to himself, "I don't care that people who are influenced by my thinking may never reach Enlightenment by following the path of the Buddha. If they don't, that's their problem. I wasn't trying to influence them, anyway."​

    Your entire perception of atheism is tinged by your Christianity. You are unable to fully separate your thought processes from your Christianity and examine things from a truly neutral POV.

    I think this is why Christians don't understand (and fear) atheists, and view secularism as an attack on Christianity.
     
  4. Gordon EF

    Gordon EF Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 15, 2004
    Edinburgh
    I might come back and give a fuller answer later but do you realise that you are an atheist with respect to every single religion ever thought up in the history of the world apart from your own. Couldn't the exact same questions be put back to you?
     
  5. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm quite sure I have more thoughts on this matter, but for now this abbreviated response will have to do.

    In life we all have the opportunity to accept the existence of a god or accept that there is no god (or we can be unsure). Such acceptance one way or another should be an informed decision, and as such the person should be aware of what that decision means for their life. An atheist accepts the fact that we have choices and those choices have consequences. Even Jesus preached that we are all culpable for our actions.
    An atheist doesn't, or at the very least shouldn't, believe in fate or that we have a purpose to fulfill (beyond survival). We are just organisms (albeit intelligent) on this planet who can ultimately choose to live our lives as we see fit. When you get right down to it we are not very different than an alligator or a bird or a flower - we are on this planet for a short period of time and we want to live and procreate. That said, humans have rules that exist to protect the individuals in a society as well as the society itself, and as such adhering to those rules benefits all involved.

    Please don't think that there is some set atheist agenda or book that we have that lays out the rules for us. There isn't. When we stand up and say that a nativity scene on the lawn of a public courthouse is wrong we are saying it because we feel that such an action is a sponsorship of religion and goes against the US Constitution. There are religious people who believe this as well.
    I can't speak for other atheists, but my belief is that honesty and integrity are what made me an atheist. After years of education and gathering knowledge I came to a conclusion and despite being human and wanting to believe that there is something up there with a plan watching over me, I could not lie to myself and believe because it made me feel better. Accepting that I am just another organism on a tiny hospitable hunk of rock in a vast universe and that ultimately I can rely on only myself for survival wasn't as easy as flipping on/off a light switch. Being an atheist is not as easy as just not believing.
    Again, I cannot speak for other atheists, but I sit here knowing that anything is possible. For me the knowledge that human society has gathered up till this moment has led me to draw a conclusion. Am I 100% absolutely certain about that conclusion? No. However, I am not about to abandon that conclusion because of an outlier of a possibility.
    I do not understand the persecution complex Christians seem to have. You are the majority in this country and it is not you who are reviled and hated for your beliefs. Despite what you think, we do not hate you - well not most of you, there are a few crazies who rightly draw our ire. In fact we spend our lives virtually surrounded by you who are our family members, our friends, our colleagues. I'm fairly certain that far more atheists suffer persecution at the hands of Christians in modern America than the other way around.
     
  6. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    royalstilton => excellent post; lots of hard-hitting inquiries; the responses thus far detail that answers to questions your raised are not that clear... If I could add a just a small bit, it is my assessment that atheists want simply selfish desires and selfish concerns. That is their primary purpose; enhancement of self rather than any world view beyond that self. In fulfillment of that selfishness is their inherent denial of anything outside of it; i.e., a God that might set rules on that self or others that might approve of God's rules. Trying to convince them (atheists) that Life has a Purpose that is outside their self is difficult, since it is through that self lens that their entire existence is measured and predicated; they rarely if ever look outside of it.
     
  7. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i feel virtually no persecution from atheists. what i do experience is a society that seems to have lost its moral compass, for lack of a better word.

    Julian Huxley said that evolution had such immediate currency for so many people because it had a powerful impact on sexual mores. most supporters -- not all, but that's not the issue -- of evolution have taken a Biblical god out of the equation as far as the origin of Life is concerned. if there is no god, no creation, no purpose, other than survival, then we are more free to establish our own values regarding sexual morality than if we believe that God has spoken on the matter.

    i have no idea whether atheists tend to be libertarian or whatnot, but i imagine that the most commonly held view about such things as pornography and other matters that impact our sexual mindset is very laissez-faire. it's no shock, i'm sure, that i think this kind of thinking is short-sighted. i think that pornography has a negative impact on the way men -- especially men -- view sexuality, and this in turn creates much more of a "women as sex objects" perspective than is good for society in general and families in particular.

    one can take the Biblical teaching about women submitting to men and hammer out a policy statement that is about subjugation of women, but that is completely at odds with what is actually being taught. i know that within Christian circles, there is much abuse of the "submission" concept, and i know it does harm. i have no way of knowing whether it does more harm than what i am fairly certain pornography does.

    so, rather than persecution -- which may be on the far horizon or around the corner -- i think it's more of culture war, where secular progressives are trying to extract the potentially salutary effects of Christian morality in favor of a more libertarian structure, where non-interference is the best strategy to assure that our society thrives. in that scenario, a Christian worldview is dangerous because it will impinge itself into/onto institutions in a way that is constraining.

    the Christian thinks we need constraints. is the Christian not correct?

    then it comes down to what constraints are better for society at large, and what constraints do damage. in order to answer such questions, we must look at the situation from a broader perspective than personal liberty.
     
  8. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    this is the problem with your conceit: there is no such thing as a truly neutral POV. you are either for God or against him.

    the atheist says there is no God. the atheist thinks that this is a neutral position.

    it's not.
     
  9. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    This is precisely why being religious is easier. The most fundamental questions of existence are already answered for you. If you feel depressed - that's OK, there's a God that loves you. Oh sure, religious people claim that there's a "tough standard to follow" - but that's not borne out by fact, since on average religious people are no more law abiding than atheists or agnostics. As Nietszche once said, "he who has a why to live can bear with almost any how."
     
  10. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    This is fundamentally untrue. If one is born without religion, "yes" or "no" to the question of "does God exist" are not the only two choices. The natural choice is "I don't know". If I did not grow up believing in God, I would not need to reject the concept, but I would also have no reason to believe in one.

    Ironically, I'm pretty familiar with that situation, since that's how I grew up.
     
  11. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Societal constraints on individuals is a question that is beyond religion or atheism.
    Furthermore, please stop conflating evolution with a rejection of God. The goal of evolution is not to describe where life came from, nor was it to eliminate the notion of God or social mores. That remains true today.
     
  12. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Some of us believe truth is its own reward.
     
  13. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i'm not sure that atheists have self-centeredness as an intentional viewpoint. what i think is much more likely is that they are not informed by a God-centered POV. it isn't willful in every case. it isn't the result of carefully constructed denial. most people who don't see things from a broad perspective aren't specifically aware that their view is narrower than others.

    you see that a number of others are saying that my Christian POV creates a lens that shapes my verbal output and renders me incapable of other perspectives. what they fail to recognize is that i wasn't born with a Christian world view. i was essentially an agnostic until i was in my 30s. some of these posters are younger than i was when i received the gospel, i would bet.
     
  14. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    the goal of some supporters of evolution is to create the view that God is irrelevant.

    try stepping back from the question and seeing it from a POV that includes all the real scenarios.

    and spiritual perspective informs ones attitude about societal constraints.
     
  15. YankHibee

    YankHibee Member+

    Mar 28, 2005
    indianapolis

    At what historical point was society's moral compass oriented?
     
  16. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Keats was right, then?
     
  17. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    American Society Had As Its Predominant Moral Perspective A Worldview That Was More Biblical Than Secular.

    As secular progressive develop a more influential base for amending the worldview, the moral compass shifts.

    IOW, the Bible is not the source that informs our morality. Our morality is informed by what we think is best for us individually.
     
  18. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Those are not supporters of evolution, those are people looking for evidence that God is irrelevant. No scientist is desperately publishing his paper one evolutionary biology to "disprove" God. Its not possible.

    Right back at you.

    No, that is not correct. A RELIGIOUS perspective does, not a spiritual one. How you commune with your God is your problem and no one else's. The rules you then take away for your life from your God's teachings - that's religion. And that's ONE of the things that informs your views on societal constraints, but yours is ultimately nothing more than one voice in the cacophony of competing interests that attempt to determine what is "moral" in today's society and what is not.
    In a land where Gods do not exist, societal mores are still necessary.
     
  19. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    A fundamentally false assertion that attempts to create a "Christian" country out of America. Its notable that most of America's early leaders looked directly to men who rejected much of Western religion and looked even more directly to ancient societies that were pagan.
     
  20. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    There is no right or wrong in this case.
     
  21. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The goal of some supporters of God is to create the viewpoint that homosexuals are responsible for the evil in the world, which sounds pretty stupid when you step back.
     
  22. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Back in my day, when children respected their elders and when we walked barefoot in the snow up a hill to get to school.
     
  23. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because you can find people who believe anything, I have no doubt that there are, in fact, some people like this.

    There aren't anywhere near enough of them to constitute more than a microscopic percentage of the "pro-evolution" camp. No, the vast majority of "evolution supporters" are just people who think that science is what should be taught in science class.
     
  24. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What has led you to this conclusion? Cite specific examples.
     
  25. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    I don't even buy that. Anyone who has a real scientific interest in evolution isn't doing it to disprove God, because proving a negative is scientifically impossible. There are a few people who use evolution to push a very strong atheist agenda, yes, but calling them "supporters of evolution" is grossly misleading. Hitler didn't force Jews to wear yellow stars because he was a supporter of bright yellow accessories. (I don't mean to Godwin the thread - just the first thing that popped to mind.)
     

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