USMNT Lineups: RSSSF vs Hall of Fame

Discussion in 'Statistics and Analysis' started by scaryice, May 31, 2007.

  1. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
    I've been doing some research on the USMNT lineups and caps, and I've found a number of differences between rsssf.com and those on the US Soccer Hall of Fame site. A week ago I emailed the guy on the HOF site, where it says to contact with any mistakes, but he hasn't responded. Which isn't surprising considering that the lineups there haven't been updated in a long time.

    I was hoping someone here would know something about this. Here's a list of the differences:

    1) 6/19/1949 - A player named "Simpkins" is listed in the HOF's starting lineup, but is nowhere to be found on the caps list. RSSSF lists Wattman instead.

    2) 10/20/1968 - HOF lists Feher as the goalkeeper, RSSSF lists De Long. Also, Alfred Kikel, who was capped in the next game, is missing from the HOF caps list.

    3) 8/10/1973 - RSSSF lists Child and Counce as subs, HOF does not.

    4) 9/9/1973 - HOF list Brewster as starting, while RSSSF lists him as a sub (with Grgurev taking his place). Also, they don't list DiCicco as a sub.

    5) 11/15/1973 - RSSSF lists Grgurev as a sub, HOF does not.

    6) 9/6/1978 - RSSSF lists Russell as a sub, HOF does not.

    7) 9/20/1978 - You have Etherington/Fowles/Trost/Villa starting, while RSSSF lists them all as subs, except Villa who isn't listed. They have McAllister/L.Nanchoff/Ralbovsky/Russell starting instead.

    8) 11/23/1980 - RSSSF lists L.Nanchoff as a sub, HOF does not.

    9) 5/30/1984 - RSSSF doesn't list Crow as a sub.

    10) 2/8/1985 - RSSSF doesn't list Mausser as a sub.

    11) 2/5/1986 - RSSSF lists Murray as a sub, HOF does not.

    12) 7/1/1991 - RSSSF doesn't list Trittschuh as a sub.

    13) 7/3/1991 - RSSSF lists Trittschuh as a sub, HOF does not. He probably played on either 7/1 or 7/3, and one source listed the wrong date.

    14) 9/14/1991 - RSSSF doesn't list Jonas as a sub.

    15) 1/25/1992 - RSSSF doesn't list Sorber as a sub.

    16) 10/19/1992 - RSSSF lists Kinnear as a sub, HOF does not.

    17) 2/20/1994 - RSSSF lists Klopas as a sub, HOF does not.

    18) 7/8/1995 - RSSSF lists Berhalter as a sub instead of Moore. However, elsewhere on their site they do list Moore (this is probably a mistake on their part).

    19) Also, I was unable to find the following players on any of the lineups, although they are listed by the HOF as having one cap each:

    Howard Whatford
    John Sousa Gastelum
    Bud Lillie
    James Hannah
    Curtis Leeper

    As far as I can tell, everything else is the same on both sites.

    I would love to get to the bottom of this to produce a list of lineups that is 100% accurate. So please let me know, if you can, who is correct for all the games above. Video tape could help out with the more recent matches. Thanks everyone.

    The only one here that I think I've figured out is #5. I have a 1990 US soccer World Cup where they list the lineups from 1950-1989, and they also list Grgurev. So I guess that's confirmed. However, every other difference is the same there as well.
     
  2. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
    Here's a list of the games in question, with opponents.

    6/19/1949 - vs Scotland
    10/20/1968 - @ Haiti
    8/10/1973 - vs Poland
    9/9/1973 - vs Bermuda
    11/15/1973 - @ Israel
    9/6/1978 - @ Switzerland
    9/20/1978 - @ Portugal
    11/23/1980 - vs Mexico
    5/30/1984 - vs Italy
    2/8/1985 - vs Switzerland
    2/5/1986 - vs Canada
    7/1/1991 - vs Guatemala
    7/3/1991 - vs Costa Rica
    9/14/1991 - vs Jamaica
    1/25/1992 - vs CIS
    10/19/1992 - vs Ivory Coast (neutral venue)
    2/20/1994 - vs Sweden
    7/8/1995 - vs Chile (neutral venue)
     
  3. Zathras

    Zathras Member

    Jun 16, 2003
    Minneapolis
    I have this game on tape. I will try to determine if Dom played/was on the bench this weekend.
     
  4. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
    Thanks. It should be in the 73rd minute for Vermes. I checked, and FIFA lists him too so he should be there.
     
  5. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
  6. JG

    JG Member+

    Jun 27, 1999
    NY Times 6/20/49 reports Whatford (this would be his one cap), no Simpkins.
     
  7. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
    Does it list Wattman?
     
  8. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    United States
    Dec 28, 2006
    Cowlumbus, OH
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My bet is Simpkins refers to the player's club affiliation. From "The History of Soccer in St Louis" site (sorry I can't link it). This is in the right time frame to be correct.

    "With the rebirth of the St. Louis Major League in 1948, a new golden age commenced. The Major League quickly became a regional powerhouse, with two teams standing out in particular: Simpkins-Ford and Kutis. Simpkins-Ford was originally known as Correnti Cleaners until taken over in 1947 by the Joe Simpkins Ford Auto dealership. The team quickly assembled a roster of simply amazing talent in players such as Gino Pariano, Charlie Colombo, Frank Borghi, Bob Annis, Frank Wallace, and Bill Bertani, who led the squad to U. S. Open Cup in 1948 and 1950. Of these players, Pariani, Colombo, Bertani and Annis, were on the 1948 Olympic Squad, while Anis, Borghi, Wallace, Colombo and Pariano were on the 1950 World Cup team that shocked the world by upsetting England."
     
  9. JG

    JG Member+

    Jun 27, 1999
    No, I think "Wattman" = Whatford.
     
  10. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
    Ok, that makes sense, since Ben Wattman is listed with two caps (9/4/49 & 9/18/49), and this would be a third.

    I also found this Scottish page, which lists Whatford as well:

    http://www.geocities.com/br1anmccoll/sfatour1949.htm

    Although, and this is a whole another issue, but it lists the sub (Matevich) as coming on for Whatford and not Sheppell. And it also says it's not a full international according to Scotland. Again, that's something to worry about later.

    1 game down, 17 to go.
     

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