What would you change about Mexican futbol?

yeah, the groups are pointless. i'd definitely change that.

and maybe move to a single season, like in most euro leagues.

 

Agreed, the groups serve no real purpose but to organize the league into certain categories and debate over which one has it the hardest, which is a discussion that would be of little or no value. They would go if I had a say. I don's know about the single season idea, though. The "liguilla" is the most exciting part of the season: the upsets, and the final game. And they usually are top-notch games, entertainment wise. To make things more exciting, I would have that, in case of overtime in la final, the OT be "Gol de Oro."

The rule about players under 21 playing a certain number of minutes is something that I don't like and would be out. The intentions of the federation are good ones, and Mexico should always be looking for new talent, but this rule forces DTs to sometimes put players on the field that are not ready. It is the major league of the country for a reason, because it is the league where the "BIG BOYS" play, the ones that have proven to be First-Division material. For the young players with potential, there are the other divisions, where they can strengthen their game. That way when they do get minutes in the First Division, it will be because of their own merits and not because of some burden place on the team by regulations.

 

Draft.

Its illegal. FIFA has turned a blind eye. The draft empowers the owners to a point where the player is in doubt with his future. There should be a balance where neither owners or players have power over another one. Is a Union needed, maybe so. But seeing how the unions work in MLB, NBA, NFL, and many of the South American leagues.... its a recipe for disaster, atleast for long term.

Statutes.

Reduce the number of foreigners to 3 and allow only 1 naturalized player per team.

Sign foreigners that have been capped to their respective NTs. For example, Central American have to have been capped by their Sr. NT. Players from Brazil, Argentina must have been capped by their U-21 team. This would give the league more spotlight.

All stadiums must have floodlights (Toluca is the only one without them).

No more games at noon. All game must start at 4 pm CT.

Enforce all 1st division teams to sell their 2nd (primera a) and 3rd (segunda) division teams. If it means playing with 14 or 16 clubs at each of those levels...SO BE IT. Our lower divisions are subsidized to a point where it can provide a competitive environment. However, I would subsidize the 4th (tercera) division. Those players are usually 14, 15 and they need to have access to a steady and healty diet, gyms, and doctors.

I would eliminate groups at the top flight. Best 8 go to the playoffs. I would keep the groups and reclassification in the lower divisions.

I would return to the long season format. If the fan is so use to having 2 champions per year (one in may and another in december), why not play Copa Mexico. Copa Mexico can be played from July to December. It can serve as the qualifier to the Libertadores. Eliminate Interliga and use those sponsors for Copa Mexico.

It coincides with the Calender.

Copa Mexico is played from July to December. Libertadores starts in Feb.
League ends in May. Copa Sudamericana starts at the beginning of Sept.

 

agree with everything u said except that....ur telling me they don't deserve spot even though they are legally Mexican? Imagine Santos getting Calero, they would have to get rid of Pony Ruiz cuz of that even thoug neither player naturalized just cuz of an interest to be called to the NT?

The 3 foreigners would be a good idea, dividing "mexicans" not so much....

 

Assume a team has 5 foreign players, 6 Mexican players, but 3 out of the 6 players are naturalized? That means that 8 out of 11 players were not Mexican born. But its best not to assume, because has happened before in yesteryears.

Dividing Mexicans? So if we were to have a team composed of naturalized players like Calero, Ruiz...how Mexican are they when they cant play for Mexico?

 

bring back Copa Mexico

 

Like i said, the law says they are Mexicans, and they are not doing it just to get a spot in the NT...they're doing it as a personal decision(identified with the country, doing their lives here, etc) and you can't just put them on the side because of that...

i agreed with your 3 foreigners idea, which would be the best thing for Mexico in the long run....if there's anyone who should be "removed", it's the foreigners and not the naturalizados...

of course many will argue that with quality foreigners the skill of the mexican players will rise, but we all know the kind of foreigners Mexican teams tend to get...

 

-I agree with most of this, except the 1 naturalized Mexican per team. As another person noted this denies that naturalized player the right as a Mexican.
-The one thing that irritates me is the Nascar-inspired shirts some teams wear. I know its business but these shirts look terrible with all those ads on them. I think Toluca is the only one with only one in the front and one in the back.

 

And the FMF, COM and CONADE are all organizations set forth to promote and develop sports at the national level. It is in their BYLAWS. But somehow, many turn away from that. The very existance of those institutions depends on developing Mexican athletes for competition. There is national interest involved or else theu would not exist.

Asturias and Moctezuma played with 9 foreigners and 2 nationals in 1943. Back then, Spaniards who said they fled that war (ask yourself when that war was over) were considered Mexicans. In 1945, Club Espana played with 9 Spaniards, 1 Argentine, and 1 Mexican. Asturias, Veracruz nationalized all of their foreign players when a rule came into a effect about limiting the number to 4. Since they were "naturalized", they counted as Mexicans but they did it for self interest. Bylaws have loop holes and history has shown us that the foreigner rules in Mexico have been twisted, shaped, broken, and flat out ignored. And what has been the result...

This has been the result.....Mexico participated in the 1930, 1950, 1954 World Cups. It was until the 1958 World Cup where they got thier FIRST ever point. It was until 1962 until they got thier 1st victory (and even then, they were already eliminated). Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina had all reached finals by 1950. By 1945, Mexico decided to put a stop to the foreigners in Mexico to develop the MExican league and the player.

5 Foreign players plus Calero, Estay, Ruiz all on the same team only allows 4 Mexican players to develop into National team players BECAUSE Calero, Estay, and/or Ruiz can not suit up for the NT

Too many loopholes with your proposal because its been done and it has been broken. 3 foreigners and 1 naturalized player has no loopholes whatsoever.

Did having 9 foreigners improve the quality of those 2 Mexicans? NO.. our World Cup history shows that

Did President Camacho's rule improve Mexican football.. YES

You want the quality of the foreigner to improve the Mexican player... make sure that ALL foreigners signed are national team players from their respective countries and not crap players like Sergio Blanco, Didi, etc

Think about this... How does having 8 or 9 players that are not elgible for the NT help Mexico? If you have 5 foreigners and 3 naturalized players (like Calero, Ruiz, and Estay who all have been capped by thier respective NT) where does the Mexican player stand.

You guys want to favor players born outside of the country (Mexicanos de Naturalizacion), I favor players born in the country (Mexicanos de Nacimiento). And for the record, players like Hugo Sanchez Portugal, Demetrio Hernandez I consider Mexican by birth because the constitution considers them Mexicans by birth right.

 

If Dorados wanted to sign Estay, Calero, and Ruiz... how does having 8 players (5 foreigners and 3 naturalized Mexicans) help the NT?

You guys are a bunch of bleeding hearts that expect the Mexican league to be a haven for foreigner and give them everything. They have their national leagues to fall back on. What does the Mexican player have? If things dont work out, where do they go? Where do they get developed? Who is going to take a chance on them?

 

The draft is awful for the player and confusing for us fans.

I also agree with getting rid of the groups. I never understood the need for them. They change every year, so they aren;t important enough to maintain. They're absolutely pointless. When did they start? has it always been like that?

I like the start times. Everybody has a chance to watch all the games, or at least most of them. The worst is having two or maybe three games going on at once. It would suck like if it was in Germany, where all but two of the games start at the same time on Saturday and the other two are played simultaneously on Sunday. That's not a good way to promote your league. Yes, the NFL plays all of its games at the same time but soccer games are done in two hours and can be spaced out accordingly like they are now. I don't have any problems with that.

 

Take it easy Sir Stress-a-alot, im all about keeping the Mexican National Team MEXICAN, however, Im ok with a young foreigner developing in Mexico and considering Mexico home (ie, Zinha, even though i think there are better than him in the league) Im against Guille and Gaitan, who are Argentine rejects who settle for Mexico.
However, if Dorados wants to hire Calero, Ruiz, Estay, its their business and it should be their fans demanding a change. If you think about it, the rule says you can have up to X amount of foreigners, doesnt say you have too! Therefore when you hear coaches talk about recruiting in S.America because they still have a foreigner slot there, technically they can fulfill that slot with a Mexican. So everyone from LaTorpe to Hugo Sanchez and everything in between, except Chivas, is guilty. So my "bleeding heart" doesn't change that fact.
As a naturalized my self, it would suck if i get denied a chance becuase an ultra-right conservative like you doesnt feel i belong even though ive been living in California since i was 3 years old!

 

I am not about telling Dorados who they cant or can have. But its about limiting he number of players so that the NT can progress.

What if a team was composed all naturalized players? What if those naturalized players were all ready capped by their respective countries? A lot of good that would do us? You may think my argument is a bit extreme, but it is not because as you can see in my previous post I listed cases where all but one player was Mexican born. IT HAS HAPPENED.

I think most owners have good intentions when they 1st start off, but soon worry about finances and other problems that do not pertain to atheltics.. but more so administrative.

Chamagol cost a million.

How much do you think it cost to buy 10-14 hectacres, install state of equipment, maintain a grounds crew, have team physicians, trainers, scouts, coaches, secretaries, etc. On top of their salaries, also pay benefits. And we are just talking about the top flight? What about the reserves? What about the lower division teams? How much do you think it cost to pay an entire coaching and administrative staff? How much do you think it cost in transportation to take 7-10 (10 year olds, 11-12, etc)teams on the road knwoing they dont attract crowds and dont draw any money?

Now.. how much do you think it cost to have more training and scouting grounds spread out across Mexico?

Clubs have afiliate programs (like Ceforca), but even then they still need thier own.

I understand why sometimes a club would rather spend a million on Chamagol, to reinvest in more training grounds. It is a reality. Getting foeigners is an easier option and a lot cheaper.

That is not a teams fualt. That is just what the market states.

Do you want to know one of the reasons why Chivas has not been as successful for nearly 40 years? Because playing with all Mexicans is expensive. Signing Oswaldo, Morales, Carmona, Palencia, Diego, Pineda (players already made and already NT) cost a lot of fvcking money.

Look at America... Villa, Blanco, Gringo, Oscar Rojas, Memo Ochoa, Torres all came from America's system. What they cant produce, they can get cheap from South America.

Chivas does not have the luxury. BUT, they do have a tradition that in theory makes money and why they are hesitant to pay for top mexican talent is beyond me... (but that is a different thread all together)

No one is denying you life or liberty. They are not denying you health services. They are not denying an education. They are not denying you a work Visa. Do not turn this into discrimination. It it not about dscrimination.

 

What, now im confused, mr flip flop! So what youre saying is that we need to bring in foreigners who havent been capped so they can naturalize and play for mexico? isnt that what LaTorpe, Guille and Gay-tan are doing? Whether they are capped or not is shouldnt make a difference, i dont think they belong on the Mexican National Team! Unless,they were young and were raise (soccer-wise) in Mexico and not imported as a finished product.

BS(and im not refering to BigSoccer), these are businessmen, they know exactly what their doing, now youre justifying why they do what they do. How many new fans have packed the Azteca to see Atlante and Chamagol? Trust me Tigres wont accumulate new fans by this signing. They want to quick results now. They are not interested in whats good for the NT!

I consider almost winning the title a couple years back, and reaching quarterfinals in Libertadores somewhat a success. The real reason, and nobody knows for sure, i think is before they would rent out a "promotora" for say 5 years, so in the 1st 2 they invest and in the last 2 they sell it to make their money back. Vergara stopped that by buying the team.

I never said anything about discrimination, what im refering too is that notion that you say that naturalized should count as foreigner and i said being naturalized mean citizen of that country and should not be treated as second-class citizen. Plus were referring to playing futbol not life and liberty, lets keep ir reasonable here.

 

What the fvck are you talking about?

I am talking about putting a limit on players that are not considered Mexicans by birth. The naturalization clauses that we have had before always had loop holes and have detrimental to the development of Mexican football.

As I gave examples, teams from the past have suited up with 9-10 players not born in Mexico, but since they were naturalized, counted as Mexicans.

The fact that a team right now have have foreign players and sign 2 naturalized players limits the amount of playing time of Mexicans. Granted, those naturalized player may have or maynot have been capped by their old country... but the possibility exist. I want to remove the possibility of a team being able to have 7-8 players that are not eligble to provide national team players.

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BS, these are businessmen, they know exactly what their doing, now youre justifying why they do what they do. How many new fans have packed the Azteca to see Atlante and Chamagol? Trust me Tigres wont accumulate new fans by this signing.

Enrique Borja was a player first and foremost before he became a president or Tigres, Necaxa, and the FMF. Javier Perez Tueffer was America's "mascot" when he was a kid before he was America's President.

Javier Perez Tueffer maybe at age 15 did not have the heart to let go of his idol, Zague... but at age 40+ and as President, he could not compromise his the teams objectives for that of his personal feelings.

Like it or not, it is business. Each club is a business and the FMF is a business as well and they are in the business of producing Mexican players.

So are you in favor having a team roster full of naturalized players? What if all those naturalized players were capped by other NT?

You may think my example is a bit extreme but is it really? Just 6 months ago when people are saying, "Dont worry about Zinha, its only one."

I asked a simple question..."when is enough enough? When does it stop become the Mexican NT?"

People thought i was going to an extreme. To one side of the spectrum. WELL.. Guille comes along. Now Gaitan could come along and those that said that Zinha was fine are totally against Gaitan. WHAT A BUNCH OF FVCKING HIPOCRITS!!!!

You dont handle a situation before it gets out of control, you handle it before it becomes a problem.

So are you in favor of having 11 naturalized players play at this WC for Mexico?

 

Some interesting points here.

1st of all I agree about going to one "full" season... as for the thrills and spills of the liguilla, a knock-out cup would be ideal.. as someone said, the league could lead direct to Libertadores, and the cup to Copa Sudamerican - obviously the league winner would be in the CONCAF cup too... I am not sure that the extra fixtures would be a major problem. Oh, and I am no a big fan of the home and away two leg thing... especially for the final... make it a big day out, do or die thing, like the FA Cup is (or at least, was) - that said FA cup finals are usually pretty crap. But do like the FA, have a huge competition starting with amateur clubs, the big boys coming in later, and all the leagues being there.... might be fun.. what was the format for the copa mexico?

The Golden Goal? absolutely NOT!

The thing about foreign players is very complicated... in England there are now many many non-UK players, and the national team is the strongest I have seen in my lifetime, but of course the lower clubs also suffer from the fact that players from certain areas can come in much cheaper than a similiar player from home... but few overseas players in a league does not equal national team success. nor vica versa.

Kick off times, I must admit I still find it odd to have a midday kick off on Sundays, and used to hate the change in UK from 3pm Saturday to all over the place... but now I like the fact you can pretty much go to one match and see most of the others live on TV - also it may seem odd to say for such a big sport, but it is useful for the future of the game if it has a lot of coverage.. its basically free prime-time advertising of the sport - not even free the TV companies have topay to put on these adverts!

I agree with changoguapo about the shirts - of course more money coming in is always useful, and hard to resist... but some of them are mad.. it seems a bit too much for me.

Oh... the refs... well I have mentioned this elsewhere.

 

It never had strict format. Sometimes it was a direct knowckout tournament where you play one game and if you lost, you were eliminated. Other times there were set up in groups and you played round robin.

On 4-5 ocasions they allowed lower division teams to compete.

Also interesting to note that the first night game ever played in Mexico was during a Copa Mexico match between Espana and Atlante back in 1940

The Bosman ruling really complicated things in Europe as well. Players could move freely within the EU after honoring a contract. It took the UEFA 15 years to finally pass a rule that required the number of locally trained athletes on a team (and that was last year)

 

i never said they would, like i said the quality of some foreigners coming to Mexico it's just poor....Rivero and that joke of a defender Atlante had last season being the perfect examples...

what country wouldn't want to have just Nt players playing for their leagues? the reality is that just doesn't happen and there will always be some good players that are not being called to their NT for X number of reasons...and of course the Brazilians that will always go to Europe of course...

Gaitan, Damian Alvarez, Chamagol, Cabanas(till recently), Vuoso, Luduena...players that have no been called to their NT's and don't mean they are bad players either...and i do think they help...

 

Well I guess we agree on this, I just dont understand your logic and you dont understand mine, but our end results are the same. The only difference if a naturalized does it without the possibility of being on the NT and does it for Mexico, theres no problem. There was never a problem with Zinhas status when he got capped just the argument that he was a member of LaTorpe's "nepotist" crew, (Chiquis garcia, Osorno, etc...)

Youre flip flopping again, First you say best intentions, then you say it turns to administrative (those were your words), i say intentions is doesnt mean shyt, its always business!

Why doy you keep bringing up naturalized players capped by other teams, we all know they cant play for Mexico even if they wrapped themselves in the mexican flag and became the new "ninos heroes"

There is a difference between Zinha, and Guille/Gay-tan. When Zinha was capped it was to see how he did on the national and being a MEXICAN CITIZEN he has that right. When Guille/Gay-tan were capped, it was becuase LaTorpe said there were no good Mexican forwards, and he continued to give chances to "Chiquis" Garcia, Osorno, Chato, and rarely give chances, if any, to Aldo De Nigris, Carlos Ochoa, Bravo, Bofo.

Do you even read my responses or you turn in Mr. Terretts and start spewing garbage? Zinha was young 2nd Division player from Brazil who moved up the ranks, and was naturalized way before he was capped for the "A"team, Guille and Franco held out until it was obvious that they were not going to get capped by Argentina and now settling for Mexico, there is a difference. I dont know how esle to explain it for you! It is not being a hypocrite to allow one person who is raised in an adoptive country to those who show up for a spot on a National team, after being rejected by their own.
Also if you read my response, I said i was against naturalized players who do it as an option to Germany, only those who want to be Mexican first, and national team players 2nd are ok, besides i doubt you can find 11 of them at one time.

 

But dont you think from a marketing standpoint, having a league full of many national team players is more profitable? I am not trying give either profitability or development a leg up on the other, I am just saying that both are very important and both depend on one another.

I understand that being on the NT of El Salvador is not the same as being on the Argie NT. That is why I reduced the age group of those that come from countries that produce (or export) many players. Robert de Pinho was a U 23 player for his country. Until he gets capped with the full NT, he could have played in Mexico another 4 years, gotten citizenship and played for Mexico. By no means what I am proposing is a measure to stop naturalized players... if i were.. i would have proposed that all players be capped and tied to their respective NTs

Chamagol, Cabanas have been on thier NT before.

 

what is there not to understand. I am stating it clearly and used examples.

IF YOU DONT PUT IN A STATUTE THAT CONTAINS THE AMOUNT OF NATURALIZED PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE, YOU RUN THE RISK THAT A NATURALIZED PLAYER MAY BE CAPPED TO ANOTHER NT, THEREFORE DETRIMENTAL TO OUT DEVELOPMENT.

I am not flip flopping, You just did not get it. My response and the reason I brought up the presidents and owners was to your response that owners dont have to fill up the 5 slots. I stated a REALITY. I stated that owners and presidents also have to look the at books to make choices. If America can not produce X position, they will have to get that player from somewhere else. It is no secret that Mexican players are more expensive because within our market, our players are worth more than a foreigner.

The reason i said that I believe that most have good intentions is because they dont know what lies ahead. You may think, "yeah, i am going to go in there and give Mexicans EVERY chance." But when your lower disivision and your reserves are not producing the players (according to the positions you need)...then acquiring foeigners is a viable option because it is cheaper

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[B]Why doy you keep bringing up naturalized players capped by other teams[/B], we all know they cant play for Mexico even if they wrapped themselves in the mexican flag and became the new "ninos heroes"

Do you really have to ask?

I bring them up because players like Calero are "Mexicans" that cant trickle over unto the NT.

You may think this assumption is a bit extreme (but it isnt because history has proven that our clubs at times were full of naturalized players). assume that 10 teams all have naturalized players all capped to another NT? how many starting positions are left for the Mexican that can possibly suit up for the NT

That leaves 8 clubs with only 6 positions available for Mexicans. That means that out of 198 starting roles, 48 belong to Mexicans.

No difference?

Jorge Davino. Would not want him on the NT
Duilio Davino. With open arms
Jose Alves. Would not want him on the NT
Luis Alves. One of my favorites and welcomed him with open arms
Zinha. Would not want him on the NT
Little Zinha. If he ever makes it, with open arms

I am not a bleeding heart. I am against any naturalized citizen in positions that have national interest. National interest in the political, economical, althetic realms.. it makes no difference to me... Mexico is for Mexicans

 

Changes I would make:

Allow any number of foreigners. I don't care where they come from but I want the best players out there. There is a reason why the EPL, NHL, NBA, MLB are the best leagues in the world, the most fun to watch and the richest. They take the best talent from the entire globe. This is what I want for the Mexican league. It's not their responsibility to build up the national team and as many of you have noted, this is a business. It shouldn't matter to Tigres or Dorados or Chiapas whether or not what they are doing will effect the national team. They are out there to survive and thrive, which entails winning and bringing in the fans. That should be their primary concern.

Only allow each entitiy to own no more than one team and be strict about it. No shady deals, no dissolving other teams or any of that crap. (If allowing entities to own more than one team is a must then you have to stop the relegation rule and just have the league be like major league baseball.) But I want to have a Copa Mexico and that would make no sense if all these teams were under minimal ownership.

Have a Copa Mexico. Must do above first though.

Have only 1 ad per uniform. I hate ads period and would rather have none (the one good thing that I admire Chivas for) but I understand that teams need to make money. Instead of looking like NASCAR like someone stated, just charge a lot more money for the one sponsor. They'd do it. And no more using the sponsor BIMBO. I have nothing against them but I'd be willing to bet shirt sales to at least the U.S. market are hurt by using them on it.

 

Golden Goal is no longer permitted by FIFA.

 

UEFA put in a rule about the amount of locally trained players. The FA (EPL) are under the auspices of UEFA.

NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL dont care about producing local talent because they were never set up to do so. FIFA and their respective associations were all set up to promote the game within their boundries and compete internationally.

England and Scotland played an international game against each other over 100 years ago, before FIFA. Copa de Naciones Sudamericanas (Copa America) was played in 1916 to test out the wortiness of each nation.

you may not think much of this, but during the 20th century many countries became independent. Before ever joining WTO or other organizations of that nature, they first joined FIFA. What does that tell you? It truly shows the importance and significance of what football means at the international and national level. It is a sense of national pride.

NASL was full of foreign players. American kids could only look up to 2-3 American players per team. Most historians believe that was the main reason why it failed.

MLB can have half a roster or more with foreign players, and the league still survives?

You really cant compare those sports with footie