Official 2005 J.League Thread [R] - part II

Txtriathlete · Sep 14, 2005

Continued from here

watanabe2k · Sep 14, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Why does everyone gotta be hating on Jubilo?

shuvy87 · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

I always quote people, but that day I was in a rush, so made up something close to it. Beside, I did say it was not your exact words. But now that I have the link, here is the exact quote.

However, any team that expects to be considered a "champion" should have learned long time ago that you don't EVER raise a hand against an opposing player on the pitch (2nd sentence, 5th paragraph, Urawa vs. Kashima http://www.wldcup.com/Asia/news/050305.html ).

Not that I hate your articles, but everytime I read your articles, you are always criticizing the ref and I am kind of tired of it. Football is a game made by human and officiated by human. Its not like NFL where technology can change the ruling of the game. It is judged by human and human make mistakes. Refs do not get replays, and they can not slow down the action like the TV viewers do. They have to make their decisions on a split-second as they see the action.

Now if you make a technical error like Yoshida did in Uzb vs. Bahrain game, that's a different issue. That was not a "split-second" decision; he had a lot time to think over. Plus, it was not mistake on the judgement, he just forgot the rule for that situation.

Maybe once or twice a year, it's cool to read about it. But if it's on every article, you start to sound like my 11 year-old brother who blames the ref evertime his club loses. "Oh, that goal shouldn't have counted, it was an offside" even though it was not even close to an offside.

Sometimes I also get the impression that you think that games are fixed by the ref to give one club a favouralbe result.

Anyway my point was.... depite the fact that you ALWAYS criticize the ref, it sounded very uncharacteric of you to say that Aplay should not have done that.

Acidman · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Has anyone read this, http://www.goal.com/NewsDetail.aspx?idNews=86027&idSez=143
Finally someone talks about the Pathetic European clubs that come over here for money and do nothing but kick and injure our players

Acidman · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

and also Ruy Ramos is a coach at kashiwa reysol now

Matsu · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

shuvy87 said:

I always quote people, but that day I was in a rush, so made up something close to it. Beside, I did say it was not your exact words. But now that I have the link, here is the exact quote.

However, any team that expects to be considered a "champion" should have learned long time ago that you don't EVER raise a hand against an opposing player on the pitch (2nd sentence, 5th paragraph, Urawa vs. Kashima http://www.wldcup.com/Asia/news/050305.html ).
Click to expand...

True. But that was the summary at the very end of the article. My description of the incident itself was this:

"The Reds defender gave Suzuki a light slap on the cheek, probably not with any ill intent, but rather to give a clear signal of his annoyance. But Suzuki -- who would never be accused of being "too sportsmanlike" -- spotted an opportunity and was quick to exploit it. Though Alpay's "slap" was nothing more than a love tap, Suzuki crumpled to the ground and began screaming for an ambulance. Unfortunately for Alpay, the linesman had seen the entire incident . .. "

Later I had a better look and I think Alpay's action was even worse than I described it. At the end of the day, I still feel exactly the same about the basic principle. My description put much of the blame on Suzuki, but at the end of the day, it was Alpay who did something wrong.

Furthermore, it is true that I often criticise referees but always I am careful to identify exactly what I object to, and try to provide a picture to support my complaint. I rarely make a big fuss when it is just a minor thing. The problem is that the calls we have been seeing lately are anything but "minor" and most people who have seen my video clips agree.

In the case of Alpay, however, the rules state very clearly that if you raise a hand against an opposing player, you get sent off. The referee made exacty the correct call, even if it did end up seeming a bit harsh for the Reds. Any sports player who is earning money to play the sport should have learned the rule that you NEVER hit or kick an opposing player, when it is off the ball or play has stopped. Even if it is the lightest tap or even if you dont even make contact, raising a hand against an opponent is a major no-no, and as Smoking Man said, this had a lot to do with the Reds decision to dump Alpay. The head office felt that his type of play was not what you expect from a professional.

shuvy87 said:

Maybe once or twice a year, it's cool to read about it. But if it's on every article, you start to sound like my 11 year-old brother who blames the ref evertime his club loses. "Oh, that goal shouldn't have counted, it was an offside" even though it was not even close to an offside.
Click to expand...

Obviously though, that isnt the situation that we are talking about here, is it? Ive put up the videos and made my comments, so that anyone can see for themselves what Im talking about. If I complain about things that arent really a mistaken call, everyone will be able to see that, and they will quickly lose faith in my comments. For example, based on the feedback from my report last week, most people who saw the videos (including even a few dyed-in-the-wool Gamba fans) recognised that the officials are giving Gamba a "helping hand".

Whether this is deliberate or unconscious is another question altogether. I suspect that most of the J.League refs (apart from Yoshida, Okada and possibly Takayama) are not even aware that they favour one team or another, even though it sometimes seems that way. The problem is that some teams (and some players) develop a reputation as being "good" or "bad", and many J.League refs (unfortunately) are not able to maintain an open mind. Their calls are often influenced by how they feel about the team or the player. I remember 4 or 5 years ago that the Antlers used to get a lot of favorable calls for this same reason. Then it was Jubilo's turn to be the favourite of the media and the referees (which is one reason why I started to dislike them. Nothing personal, in fact this year I am starting to like them again). Now it is Gamba who can never seem to do anything wrong, in the eyes of the referees.

That doesnt mean the refs are "fixing" matches (though I definitely DO think that Okada has fixed a few, over the years). Most of them may not even realise what they are doing.

But that is exactly the problem.

A good referee needs to have the ability to separate himself from his prejudices and feelings about any player or team, and make calls based ONLY ON WHAT HE SEES. This is clearly an area where J.League referees are extremely unprofessional by global standards. There are some -- specifically, Mr. Ota, Mr. Katayama. Mr Noda and a few others -- who are quite good, and you will hardly ever hear me criticise them. I even go out of my way to praise them if they have a good match.

But unfortunately, they are the exceptions, and the ones like Yoshida and Okada are (for some strage reason) the ones who almost always get assigned to crucial matches. This is obviously a problem for the J.League and for the AFC, and for all football fans. The reason why I put so much effort into discussing these issues is that NOBODY ELSE WILL. You should know enough about Japanese society to realise that. The elephant can shit right in the middle of the room and everybody will act like "what elephant". Nobody wants to rock the boat.

The interesting thing is that I actually think I have made some positive progress, due to my complaints. Other newspapers are now at least discussing the matter, and Ive had feedback from people ranging from Les Mottram and the Antlers' player development manager Mr. Suzuki all the way to overseas newspapers and the people who operate FIFA's official website.

I accept your comments, and maybe you are right that sometimes I let myself get too obsessed with the problem. This is bound to be a risk I face, because I get emotionally involved in trying to prove the point that officiating needs to be improved.

But do you honestly think it would be better if I did nothing?

depflight · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Matsu said:

But do you honestly think it would be better if I did nothing?
Click to expand...

I think this is the biggest problem with the ref issue -- no one knows exactly WHAT to do about it. The impression I get from the way the J-league controls (if that's the proper word) what gets outputted by the media (mainstream tv and mags, mostly) is that they don't want the entire community to gang up on refs because Japanese are very serious about the jobs they do and the minute things come down on them the initial response is to resign in order to show their remorse -- not stick around an make it better. And would it be any better to just fire people? I'm not very informed on the whole refereeing community and behind-the-scenes stuff, so it's difficult for me to imagine proactive ways to improve things. How do we make immediate adjustments? Are there better refs in the lower divisions who are waiting for a chance at the big time? Are we having problems with attrition or lack of people, and can't afford to fire anyone?

One thing though, is that this terrible mistake by this ref has put the spotlight on the refs as a whole, and perhaps there will be more discussion within the ref community to be aware of the pitfalls and become more sensitive to the nuances of refereeing. And I don't mean just Japan, either, because there was some atrocious stuff going on throughout the AFC this past couple years.

Matsu · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

depflight said:

I think this is the biggest problem with the ref issue -- no one knows exactly WHAT to do about it. The impression I get from the way the J-league controls (if that's the proper word) what gets outputted by the media (mainstream tv and mags, mostly) is that they don't want the entire community to gang up on refs because Japanese are very serious about the jobs they do and the minute things come down on them the initial response is to resign in order to show their remorse -- not stick around an make it better. And would it be any better to just fire people? I'm not very informed on the whole refereeing community and behind-the-scenes stuff, so it's difficult for me to imagine proactive ways to improve things. How do we make immediate adjustments? Are there better refs in the lower divisions who are waiting for a chance at the big time? Are we having problems with attrition or lack of people, and can't afford to fire anyone?
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that this is the case. My general impression is that the J2 refs are as much of a mixed bag as the J1, but that SHOULD mean that if you had some system of evaluations and if people had the motivation/pressure to do a good job, you should be able to get a reasonably decent group out of the combined J1 and J2. One problem that exists now is that J1 refs know that they will NEVER be punished no matter how badly they screw up, so there is no incentive to try to improve, and no punishment if they dont.

But a more serious problem is that the whole system is so hopelessly bureaucratic (errrr . . . . what did you expect? This is, after all, Japan). The best example I can think of is a guy I know who lives in Kobe, who has his class B officiating license and was born and raised in England. He has been refereeing lots of practice matches for several years now, and even the players say that he is MUCH MUCH better at officiating than any current J.League ref.

But since he is a foreigner (even though he is a permanent resident in Japan), and since he is 43 years old, they wont let him take the training courses in Japan to qualify to get a class A officiating license. It doesnt matter how good he might be, the bureacracy has decided that only refs that have jumped through all the proper bureaucratic hoops are allowed to be J.League officials.

Now you might think -- Wait a minute! Isnt it more important how GOOD the person is AS A REFEREE, and not whether he took his B license course in Japan, at age such and such, filled out all the proper paperwork, started his A license course and got qualified before age so and so, and was documented by all the proper documenting documenters, approved by all the approval approving approvers, and selected by all the selection selecting selectors?

You might also ask: "if the guy is better at officiating than any current J.League ref, what difference does it make how old he is and what country he lived in when he earned his B certification ?"

But that would just prove how little you understand about Japan. It isnt a question of what is right or wrong. The important thing is that we preserve the holy *WA* that exists in our beautiful bureaucracy.

If you were wondering why I always get so worked up about this issue, I hope that gives you at least one clue.
.

depflight · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Matsu said:

... It isnt a question of what is right or wrong. The important thing is that we preserve the holy *WA* that exists in our beautiful bureaucracy.

If you were wondering why I always get so worked up about this issue, I hope that gives you at least one clue.
.
Click to expand...

The bureaucracy in Japan has truly evolved into an art form. The story you had about your friend in Kobe sounds about right -- sad, but unsurprising. I noted a comment by a J-league suit (can't remember who exactly, but one of the top) in an article about bringing Collina into Japan, where this J-league official said that the Japanese fans don't respect the refs enough and bringing in Collina will bring more authority to the refs. It struck me as backwards thinking, and I was suprised to hear the J are thinking this way. That it isn't the refs that are the problem but the authority of the refs from the spectator side. It's also disappointing to hear the refs are not being developed and motivated and recruited in a more creative modern way.

TrooperBari · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

watanabe2k said:

Why does everyone gotta be hating on Jubilo?
Click to expand...

Because they make it so easy?

shuvy87 · Sep 15, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Matsu said:

The problem is that some teams (and some players) develop a reputation as being "good" or "bad", and many J.League refs (unfortunately) are not able to maintain an open mind. Their calls are often influenced by how they feel about the team or the player.
Click to expand...

Isn't that true everywhere? I don't know about Europe, but in MLS, Landon Donavan will never get a red card, even if he swears at the ref.

Matsu said:

I remember 4 or 5 years ago that the Antlers used to get a lot of favorable calls for this same reason. Then it was Jubilo's turn to be the favourite of the media and the referees (which is one reason why I started to dislike them. Nothing personal, in fact this year I am starting to like them again). Now it is Gamba who can never seem to do anything wrong, in the eyes of the referees.
Click to expand...

Then again, Gamba are playing well too. I guess you can blame the refs, but that should be insignificant if you consider the whole season.

Matsu said:

though I definitely DO think that Okada has fixed a few, over the years
Click to expand...

LOL.

Matsu said:

This is bound to be a risk I face, because I get emotionally involved in trying to prove the point that officiating needs to be improved.
Click to expand...

Don't we all do that.

Matsu said:

But do you honestly think it would be better if I did nothing
Click to expand...

I am hoping that the incident at Uzb vs. Bahrain game will improve things.

Another problem I think is that Japanese people have this notion that "you shouldn't complain too much, even if you know they are wrong" and that's true with most Japanese media.

Take the Fukuda's hand insident for example. I thought there is going to be a mojar change. But meida did not pressure the league and all J. League said was "ref made the right call, because the hand ball was not intensional"

Matsu said:

Now you might think -- Wait a minute! Isnt it more important how GOOD the person is AS A REFEREE, and not whether he took his B license course in Japan, at age such and such, filled out all the proper paperwork, started his A license course and got qualified before age so and so, and was documented by all the proper documenting documenters, approved by all the approval approving approvers, and selected by all the selection selecting selectors?

You might also ask: "if the guy is better at officiating than any current J.League ref, what difference does it make how old he is and what country he lived in when he earned his B certification ?".
Click to expand...

That's the exact reason my family left Japan. Being a foreigner in Japan is one though thing.

shuvy87 · Sep 16, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Guys look at this.... Prediction from earlier this year.

Except for Kusatsu and Yokohama, it is still possible to end like this.

lilcookie · Sep 16, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

i want gamba to win coz they haven't won anything

shuvy87 · Sep 16, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Yea same reason, the winner has to be either Kashima or Gamba. I also rooted for FC Tokyo but they no where up there.

I want verdy to relegate because I don't want them to represent ACL next years with this years performance. May be that will force J.League and JFA to change their representative to this years' winner.

lilcookie · Sep 16, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

i have no problems with kashima...but a lot do (they win a lot don't they)..i;m annoyed with urawa though they just pissed me off...seeing the game against man utd, it was a good first half but they had to change goalies int the 2nd half...eek...and tehir kit looks wannabe man utd...andi hate man utd!

anyways i want gamba to win coz Miyamoto wants to be the first person...his captain right?...well yeah he wants to win the trophy and be the first man to win a title for gamba..and plus i like the team...

lilcookie · Sep 16, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

i asked this yonks ago..but what in the hell happened to kota yoshihara?
man that guy was like an ace in the late 90's

Acidman · Sep 16, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Yoshihara hasn't been that great for a few years now, he's hardley featured this season, i think he's only ever came of bench, but he's been cast out buy Oguro, Fernandinho and Araujo

Acidman · Sep 17, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

FT Kashiwa Reysol 2 - 1 Gamba Osaka

Balls!! But comon, does this not prove that J League is best in world for Excitment and being unpredictable
Kashima next week, can't wait, and keiji Tamada scored another 2 for Reysol so good news on the NT front

Acidman · Sep 17, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Does anyone know where the hells Kubo gone now , havn't seen him in about 4 weeks or something,

lilcookie · Sep 18, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

eeeks....you shitting me....GARGGHHH!...yeah but there is always one stage in life that you have the limelight...yoshiharas time has gone then...

Acidman · Sep 18, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

You never know, he's still only 27. But he will have to leave Gamba if he want's first team football

lilcookie · Sep 18, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

yeah i know...wasn't yoshihara considering to leave or something like that...and is 27...i thought he was 28...blahhh...he still looks 20.... i'm not good at guessing age

shuvy87 · Sep 20, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Some good stuff: Ｊ２全12クラブが黒字に

THOMA GOL · Sep 21, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

oi! Seeing a post from Matsu is like seeing a CONVINCING win from my beloved Marinos this season (i.e. rare). Great to see his name on the posts though. Although some may be snappy to get huffy with him, I, as a lurker, find it all entertainin (also knowledgable) off topic, but I'm in week one of Katakana, after spending two weeks in Hiragana. The month of October will be all about verbs.JOY

Acidman · Sep 23, 2005

Re: 2005 J-League Thread [R] (part II)

Luizao Leaves Nagoya For Santos http://www.goal.com/NewsDetail.aspx?idNews=88196&idSez=143