I've been going thru the vaults of Kicker magazine for the years 1969 to 1979 (roughly the golden era in German football) and intend to post the following popular features in this forum for each year: - Rangliste des deutschen Fussballs / Ranking list of German Football - Mannschaft der Saison / Team of the Season - Fussballer des Jahres / Footballer of the Year (complete list for each year) As far as I know, this information is not available in the internet anywhere, so for those interested in (German) football history, this should be interesting. I will start with the "Rangliste des deutschen Fussballs" from July 1969. To those not familiar with it, the Kicker staff is publishing these lists twice a year (after each half of a Bundesliga season) and the ranking only covers the performances of players during these 6 months, which sometimes means that (due to lack of form) even a legendary player sometimes may not end up in the "World Class" category each and every time. Also important to know is that only those players that were playing in a German team are included in these lists (as the performances of German players playing outside of Germany could not be judged properly). The only exception to this is after a World Cup season has ended. Furthermore, if there is more than one player listed in a category, those players with better performances are listed at the top. I will only post one of the two "Ranglisten" for each year, which will be the more important one after a finished season or directly after a World Cup was held. RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1969 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1969 Torhüter / Goalies Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Maier (Bayern) Wolter (Braunschweig) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Nigbur (Schalke 04) Rynio (Dortmund) Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Vogts (M’Gladbach) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Höttges (Werder Bremen) Patzke (Hertha BSC) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Bella (MSV Duisburg) Koppenhöfer (Kaiserslautern) Innenverteidiger / Centre Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) W Schulz (Hamburg) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Vogts (M’Gladbach) Weber (Cologne) Fichtel (Schalke 04) L Müller (Nuremberg) Patzke (Hertha BSC) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Schwarzenbeck (Bayern) Pirsig (MSV Duisburg) Anders (Hannover) Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Overath (Cologne) Netzer (M’Gladbach) Lorenz (Braunschweig) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: B Dörfel (Braunschweig) Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Zaczyk (Nuremberg) Neuberger (Dortmund) Friedrich (Kaiserslautern) Ulsass (Braunschweig) H Schmidt (Bayern) Kalb (Frankfurt) W Entenmann (Stuttgart) Hölzenbein (Frankfurt) Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: None Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: B Dörfel (Braunschweig) Libuda (Schalke 04) Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Grabowski (Frankfurt) Görts (Bremen) Linksaussen / Outside Lefts Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: None Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Brenninger (Bayern) G Dörfel (Hamburg) Köppel (M’Gladbach) Steffenhagen (Hertha BSC) Volkert (Nuremberg) Rebele (1860 Munich) Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: G Müller (Bayern) Seeler (Hamburg) Held (Dortmund) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Ulsass (Braunschweig) Ohlhauser (Bayern) Heynckes (Hannover) Weist (Dortmund)
Great great great!!!!! Thanks very much. Really interesting to see for me as I wasn't even born back then. Those were the days....
Well, I don't midn the current situation, Alex (I don't see us winning any of the derbys soon, so it is good that you are down there)
Who knows, maybe we'll get a regular derby again in the not-so-far-future. Stranger things have happened before .
Yip, like a farmer's club getting a spot in the 1st Bl season and the most important club on earthc not (in the 1st Bl season, Braunschweig got a spot in the 1st BL, because they had a better season before the founding, even though hannover in generall was stronger before (2 times german champion). Hannover fans still complain today ;-) ) Anyways, did you get a ticket for the WC, Alex?
Farmer's club? ALL-TIME TABLE OBERLIGA GERMANY ALL GROUPS 1945/46 - 1962/63 28. Eintracht Braunschweig 15 436 186 98 152 855- 785 470 30. Hannoverscher SV 96 15 444 188 88 168 799- 750 464 All-time table GERMANY 1933/34 – 2003/04 14. Eintracht Braunschweig 46 1304 2486 2135 361 1390 16. Hannoverscher SV 96 42 1216 2260 1910 348 1235 Just for the record . Way too expensive for my tastes.
This is so great as my fave decade is the whole decade of the 70's. Please keep posting the rest. Torhüter / Goalies Maier (Bayern) Yes, Maier still had to prove more to be a World Class in 1969 (he evetually became world class throughout the 70's). Wolter (Braunschweig) I onece was a fan of his when I saw him play for 3rd spot of the WC against Uruguay with the cool (back then) #22. Nigbur (Schalke 04) He still ranks at thop when it comes to blocking PKs and was unlucky to have Meier at the NT. Rynio (Dortmund) Who cares! Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Vogts (M’Gladbach) The tiny working horse, he sure derserved. Höttges (Werder Bremen) Der Eisenbein! I also liked him as a Stopper. Patzke (Hertha BSC) Good player. Bella (MSV Duisburg) Was good, but in wrong team. Innenverteidiger / Centre Backs Beckenbauer (Bayern) I went to a kindergarten near his place. W Schulz (Hamburg) Weber (Cologne) Fichtel (Schalke 04) L Müller (Nuremberg) All three were great players, Ludwig Müller brings me a lot of nostalgia. Schwarzenbeck (Bayern) Though he was great, I've never liked Katsche. Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Beckenbauer (Bayern) Many people forget he was a great midfielder before and created not only many chances, but also scored.
I will do over the course of the following weeks. Needless to say, the 70s are my favorite decade as well when it comes to German football! Indeed. At least by 1974, nobody could deny that Maier was a World Class keeper. But there were always many doubters in Germany throughout his career. That was a flawless performance. Btw, Maier and Wolter were friends in private life. Indeed. Nigbur was one of the very finest keepers of that era, not only by German standards. Giesing? Did you know him? Ludwig "Luggi" Müller is the kind of player that would get over 60 caps if he played today. He was such a great centre back, but only managed to play for Germany 6 times or so. Modern players like Wörns would be no match for him. He really was unlucky (like many other great players) that he played during a time when Germany had an abundancy of fine players. It's the other way round with me. I don't think he was that great as a player, but I like him a lot personally. Great guy. Indeed. He even started out as a striker (played outside left in his first game for Bayern).
To be honest I had that doubt too back then, but came to realize that he was really great after his career. At that time I thought Nigbur, Burdenski were better and for a few season though I hated HSV and Gladbach, Rudi Kargus and Kleff and even Kneib was good too. I am not too sure, but I didn't know him personally. My eldest brother met him few years ago and suprisingly told me that "Der kaiser" was a good old man! Well as far as I remember he had a career threatening injury and moved to Hertha at the end of his career. Well I know Katche had a great personality, but he was just too ugly for a kid.
He broke his leg in the second match vs Internazionale in 1971. He was out for something like 10 months, and Weisweiler didn't think he'd ever get back to his normal level, thus they sold him to Hertha, who were in deep trouble at that time, due to the Bundesliga scandal, almost all of their routine players were suspended and a new team made of young and inexperienced players suddenly had to fight against relegation. In this situation, Hertha were all too glad getting an experience player like Luggi Müller. And it did pay off! Hertha stabilized under Müller's guidance and in 1975, they even became runners-up behind Gladbach in the Bundesliga with their new team and the all-important captain Luggi Müller.
This here is the second Kicker Rangliste. A very interesting one, compiled right after the 1970 World Cup, and the very good performances of the West German team are mirrored by a staggering six players in the World Class section. Also, two players earning their money outside of Bundesliga terrain are included, Schnellinger and Haller, as the Kicker staff was able to judge their class in the World Cup. RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1969 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1970 Torhüter / Goalies Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Maier (Bayern) Manglitz (Köln) Wolter (Braunschweig) Nigbur (Schalke 04 Gross (Hertha BSC) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Rynio (Dortmund) Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Vogts (M’Gladbach) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Höttges (Bremen) Patzke (Hertha BSC) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Bella (Duisburg) Heidemann (Duisburg) Innenverteidiger / Centre Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Schnellinger (Milan) Internationale Klasse / International Class: W Schulz (Hamburg) Fichtel (Schalke 04) Weber (Köln) Sieloff (M’Gladbach) L Müller (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Wittkamp (Schalke 04) Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Overath (Köln) Seeler (Hamburg) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Netzer (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Gayer (Hertha BSC) Haller (Juventus) Lorenz (Braunschweig) Dietrich (M’Gladbach) Roth (Bayern) Zaczyk (Hamburg) Flohe (Köln) Friedrich (Kaiserslautern) Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Grabowski (Frankfurt) Libuda (Schalke 04) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Rupp (Köln) Steffenhagen (Hertha BSC) Linksaussen / Outside Lefts Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Löhr (Köln) Grabowski (Frankfurt) Held (Dortmund) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Brenninger (Bayern) Maass (Braunschweig) Neuberger (Dortmund) Krauthausen (Oberhausen) Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards Weltklasse / World Class: G Müller (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Seeler (Hamburg) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Heynckes (Hannover) Laumen (M’Gladbach) Köppel (M’Gladbach) Horr (Hertha BSC) Fischer (1860 Munich)
Next round: RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1971 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1971 Torhüter / Goalies Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Maier (Bayern) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Nigbur (Schalke 04) Gross (Hertha BSC) Kleff (M’Gladbach) Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Vogts (M’Gladbach) Internationale Klasse / International Class: None Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Patzke (Hertha BSC) Bella (Duisburg) Breitner (Bayern) Bleidick (M’Gladbach) Innenverteidiger / Centre Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Sieloff (M’Gladbach) Fichtel (Schalke 04) Neuberger (Dortmund) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: W Schulz (Hamburg) Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Weltklasse / World Class: Netzer (M’Gladbach) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Overath (Köln) Grabowski (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: L Kobluhn (Oberhausen) Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Flohe (Köln) Ulsass (Braunschweig) Gayer (Hertha BSC) Zaczyk (Hamburg) Seeler (Hamburg) Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Grabowski (Frankfurt) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Köppel (M’Gladbach) Libuda (Schalke 04) Linksaussen / Outside Lefts Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Heynckes (M’Gladbach) Held (Dortmund) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: B Nickel (Frankfurt) E Kremers (Offenbach) Löhr (Köln) Steffenhagen (Hertha BSC) Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards Weltklasse / World Class: G Müller (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Köppel (M’Gladbach) Horr (Hertha BSC) Laumen (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Held (Dortmund) R Budde (Duisburg) Vogt (Kaiserslautern) Hönig (Hamburg)
Torhüter / Goalies Gross (Hertha BSC) Like his name he was really huge! Volkmer Gross was great upon the arrival at Schalke, but Nigbur is and will forever Number 1 goalie whoever had played for the Knappen. Innenverteidiger / Centre Backs Sieloff (M’Gladbach) K.D. like Luggi, another great Gladbacher with bad injury. I think they deserved more to be with the NT as well along with other Glabachers such as Hans-Jürgen Wittkamp (coz he was an ex-Schalker, nah I bet Stielike had gotten influenced by him) , Dietmar Danner and Bernd Rupp. Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Flohe (Köln) The Wasserträgers for Overath and Netzer.....I think both were and still are one of the most underrated players. Well Flohe had a good chance to shine before he got that hamstring at the WC78. Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Grabowski (Frankfurt) I hadn't considered him as a Rechtaussen, maybe coz I saw him play with Eintracht, where he was the Reggiseur in the Mittelfeld. Linksaussen / Outside Lefts This is a position where Germany had plenty of talents, but somehow for the WC74 the LW role.....(Erwin Kremers got a Red card at the last Bundesliga match of 73/74 saison, which made him disqualified because of the regulation DFB had put up.....and Heynckes though he played against Yugoslavia was not in form......Sigi & Löhr considered to be too old.....) landed to a guy named Hölzernbein and he even got the PK for the final and will be remebered thruout the world forever! Heynckes (M’Gladbach) Held (Dortmund) Jupp again another unlucky Galdbacher who hadn't make a huge mark with the NT compared to what he had shown at the Bundesliga. Sigi, Zigi Stardust was one of those players who I thought will never hang up their boots. Remember there are ONLY Good and Bad players in football, no Young or Old! B Nickel (Frankfurt) Steffenhagen (Hertha BSC) Bernd Nickel, had a great left foot. Arno, the one who went to play for NASL for a while? We, I want more Gregoriak!
Gross was involved in the scandal in 1971 and had to leave the Bundesliga, playing in South Africa and Holland. He was one of the best goalkeepers of the seventies. The 70s really had an abundance of fantastic keepers, but they're all overshadowed by Sepp Maier. Kleff, Nigbur, Gross, Manglitz, Welz, Kargus, Franke, Burdenski, Heinze, Zander, Koitka, Kneib etc. I think they were not consistent enough, unlike Berti Vogts or Herbert Wimmer. Wittkamp was seriously considered to be the replacement of Beckenbauer in the national team in 1977, but Schön used Kaltz instead. That injury ruined his career, never got back to his normal form after the 1978 World Cup. I wouldn't classify him as a wasserträger, though. Although he is overshadowed by Overath, he was an excellent technician and playmaker. Simmet was the Wasserträger for both at Köln. In the national team, he only got to play as an Aussenstürmer, but for Frankfurt, he was best when he played in the midfield. Schön would have loved to get him back playing for Germany in 1978 as a playmaker. I was never a big fan of Holz, although he scored massive amounts of goals in the mid-70s. A very versatile player that could play at every forward position. But his diving antics weren't my thing. His style of play at Gladbach was to get into the penalty area from the wings and wreak havoc, but for Germany, he couldn't play like that, as Gerd Müller was inside the box and Heynckes had to feed him like a traditional wing player. That didn't suit him that well. Heynckes became more successful for Germany after Müller's retirement. His trademark are still the massive eyebrows. I wonder if he can look straight, because they grew longer and longer everytime I see him. Yes, I think he played in the NASL. Doktor Hammer Bernd Nickel scored plenty of "Tor des Monats" with his left foot.
Kicker Rangliste from July 1972, straight after the glorious European Championship triumph. RANGLISTE DES DEUTSCHEN FUSSBALLS JULI 1972 / RANKING LIST OF GERMAN FOOTBALL JULY 1972 Torhüter / Goalies Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Maier (Bayern) Nigbur (Schalke 04) Kleff (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Franke (Braunschweig) Burdenski (Bielefeld) Aussenverteidiger / Full Backs Weltklasse / World Class: Breitner (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Höttges (Bremen) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Bella (Duisburg) Bonhof (M’Gladbach) H Kremers (Schalke 04) Libero (Ausputzer) / Libero (Sweeper) Weltklasse / World Class: Beckenbauer (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Fichtel (Schalke 04) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Sieloff (M’Gladbach) Vorstopper / Man-Markers Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Schwarzenbeck (Bayern) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Rüssmann (Schalke 04) Mittelfeldspieler / Midfield Players Weltklasse / World Class: Netzer (M’Gladbach) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Wimmer (M’Gladbach) U Hoeness (Bayern) Overath (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Flohe (Köln) Köppel (Stuttgart) Hölzenbein (Frankfurt) Lütkebohmert (Schalke 04) B Nickel (Frankfurt) Rechtsaussen / Outside Rights Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Grabowski (Frankfurt) Libuda (Schalke 04) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Wimmer (M’Gladbach) Rupp (Köln) Steffenhagen (Hertha BSC) Linksaussen / Outside Lefts Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Löhr (Köln) Grabowski (Frankfurt) Held (Dortmund) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Brenninger (Bayern) Maass (Braunschweig) Neuberger (Dortmund) Krauthausen (Oberhausen) Innenstürmer / Inside Forwards Weltklasse / World Class: G Müller (Bayern) Internationale Klasse / International Class: Heynckes (M’Gladbach) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Fischer (Schalke 04) Keller (Hannover) Rupp (Köln) Wunder (Duisburg) Seeler (Hamburg) Ausländische Spieler / Foreign Players Weltklasse / World Class: None Internationale Klasse / International Class: Hosic (Kaiserslautern) Le Fevre (M’Gladbach) Parits (Köln) Im weiteren Kreis / Broader Circle: Hansen (Bayern) van Haaren (Schalke 04)
Well, I meant for the National Team. Overath with Flohe, Netzer with Wimmer, but of course at WM74 Overath was paired with Uli Höness and Bonhof. At Köln, I think when Cullmann played in the midfield, he was also a wasserträger for Overath (and/or Flohe). Flohe was probably the most creative German midfielder at WM78 and also if Bonhof was in form before an injury before the tournament, could had been more effective as well. Schön without a Beckenbauer was surly not the best..........
1972 Euro was (gulp) long ago but I remember that final. We all knew about Müller and Beckenbauer then but Netzer was to many somewhat of a discovery. Not that people didn't know who he was but how great he was. Then many thought that Wimmer was outstanding too and were surprised 2 years later that he wasn't included in the starting 11. Jupp Heinkes had a solid 1972 also. If my memory serves me, he used to position himself almost outside of the touch line on occasions. (Or am I thinking of Uli Höneß?) Those 30 consecutive passes destroyed many a Soviet player's career, breaking up the all-star selection principle (Dynamo Kiev+Dynamo Moscow+Spartak Moscow+ CSKA+Dynamo Tbilisi) toward a single team (reinforced Dynamo Kiev + the top GK) concept. It turned out to be a disaster, from which it took years to recover. Sorry about the off-Germany tangent.
It might have been Erwin Kremers at the Left flank. Heynckes played an unsual (for him) on the Right at that tournament. Heynckes at least had two starts and Wimmer onece, Netzer only once as a reserve. Wimmer, Heynckes, Netzer were not at their best at WM74, but I am sure things might have turnd out to be better if they had played together. The three never played together at a single minute of a WM match.......... Many people around the world who did not witness the EM72 say that the Dutch had played the best football at the WM74 and Germans were the underdog at the final. I think the EM72 team had equal amount of quality of Rinus Michel's '74 team. Anyway, since West Germany had won the WM74........the issue on whether the Helds from EM72 such as Netzer, Heynckes, Wimmer, Erwin Kremers (suspended), Höttges should have played more or not had been buried...
I didn't know about Kremers' card situation until I read it here. Netzer and Heynckes was coming off injuries and not in best shape. I believe Höttges played more on the right for Vogts and not for Schwarzenbeck?? West Germany: Maier, Höttges, Schwarzenbeck, Beckenbauer, Breitner, Wimmer, U. Hoeness, Netzer, Heynckes, G. Muller, E. Kremers. And this was the 1972 Euro All-star roster ( out of 4 teams): 1. Evgeniy Rudakov [USSR], 2. Revaz Dzodzuashvili [USSR], 3. Paul Breitner [West Germany], 4. Herbert Wimmer [West Germany], 5. Murtaz Khurtsilava [USSR], 6. Franz Beckenbauer [West Germany], 7. Jupp Heynckes [West Germany], 8. Uli Höneß [West Germany], 9. Gerd Müller [West Germany], 10. Günter Netzer [West Germany], 11. Raoul Lambert [Belgium] For the USSR, a Ukrainian (Rudakov, Dynamo Kiev) and 2 Georgians (both played for Dynamo Tbilisi).
Luggi's an acquaintance/town neighbor of a friend of mine's father. We were talking about the soccer-playing "Müllers" and she said she knew one near her own town (Bamberg-Schweinfurt region) and I didn't know who that may have been, so we Googled and found Luggi and now this proves it.
Yes, "Eisenfuß" played at the RB for Vogts who was injured for EM72, but at the WM74 he was subed with Katsche as soon as he entered the pitch Sparwasser scored and was blamed for the goal, a minute later Netzer got in for Overath and it became the last match for both subs at the NT.....Höttges was a great as a Vorstopper as well, which was his main position with Bremen, playing along side with a guy named Rudi Assauer....
Still today Günter Netzer is less recognized among the greats than Beckenbauer or Overath. The 1972 European Championship (only 4 games actually, two vs England, semi v Belgium and the final v USSR) is the only international tournament he played a part in (not counting the 20 minutes in 1974). But the Euro back then was not as big a tournament it is today and it wasn't televised around the world like a World Cup tournament was. And Netzer never won an international Cup with his club Gladbach either, thus he is relatively unknown today outside of Germany. I wonder how high he would be rated today if the 1972 Germany team would have played at a World Cup... So your family is from Russia, but your father is living in Franconia and you are in America? Is that correct? What is Luggi doing these days?