Puskas vs Di stefano

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by SirWellingtonSilva, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I did not understand the third part of your reaction:
    "[Please refer to what I wrote above...]"

    And:
    [Once again, this is consistent of what was expected of the "goal-scoring" type of inside forward IMO.]

    This is also troubling because do you refer here to his role for Honved or for the NT where he, apparently, roamed a bit more.
     
  2. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thank you mr. Roy for your patience and clarification.

    Yes, this troubles me because multiple sources have published the notes of coach Gustav Sebes (most recently Jonathan Wilson for his works but also other publications had retrieved those notes). Sebes had chalked his line-up, including 'arrows' to mark the movements, in the notes. You can see in those notes that Puskas is intended to roam, with also an 'arrow' pointing behind Hidegkuti (presumably because Hidegkuti lacked the stamina of Palotas, but had a good shot which Polatas had not - according to Kocsis). Do you think that is still the same position, i.e. a 'Goal-scoring inside-foward'?
     
  4. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    No, you're the first who introduces this term to me.
     
  6. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Actually Di Stefano was older than Puskas.
     
  7. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    Do you mean Peter Palotas? He never played for Honved.. He was Hidegkuti's teammate in MTK (and all its other names).
     
  8. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    [Anyone else want to just re-wind the tape and play it again from here? ;)

    A "goal-scoring"-type of inside-forward was one of the three types of I-F that evolved from the "W-M" formation and its variations. Essentially the concept behind the "G-S I-F" was that they were supposed to be the attacking/scoring foil of the No.9 centre-forward: where the ideal No.9 was an aerial target, the goal-scoring I-F should be a quick and lethal finisher "on the deck". The No.9 should spend a lot of his time on the pitch w/his back to the opposition's goal and the "G-S I-F" should frequently be facing goal, etc. Big name players who wore the No.8 or the No.10 shirt in this role included Denis Law, Stan Mortensen (especially for England), Johnny Nicholls, Jackie Sewell and the like.

    I can post links to where the likes of Stan Cullis and Jimmy Murphey talk about the "G-S I-F" position or I can try and go into further detail if you need me to, "Puck"...]
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I see, you're right. My bad.

    Then I'm still confused why Puskas roamed more for his country than for his club :confused:
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes that is fine. Do those links also explain the other two types of inside-forwards?
     
  11. ChaChaFut

    ChaChaFut Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    Very educational. Thank you. In Spanish, there is the term "interior constructor" which (i guess) roughly translates to "creative inside forward"... which I believe is what later became "enganche" or "trequartista"...was that another type of I-F in itself?
     
  12. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    [Yes, but it's probably easier if I just give you the shorter version myself (Rewind Tape Here ;)):

    The appropriately named "deep-lying"- or "roving"-type of I-Fs were true midfield "conductors" who tended to drop back quite deep and really "run the show"for their side: the nearest equivalent today would probably be a creative "box-2-box" central midfielder. The player that made this position famous was Arsenal and Scotland's very own Alex James and it was also filled by both Raich Carter and Johnny Haynes, especially in their younger playing years.

    Generally further up the pitch were the "orthodox"-types of inside-forward: they were looked toward being more involved in the direct set-up of goals/scoring chances, had less defensive duties, etc. A more modern positional equivalent might be something like a hybrid between a withdrawn creative forward and an AM. Famous players who often filled this role included Peter Broadbent, Wilf Mannion, etc.

    If you really need me to I can post some links on the subject or just try googling something like "goal-scoring inside-forward" when you have the time, mate...]
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thank you for your clarification. Yes, I'm interested for those links.

    Btw, the two types you mentioned here was what I had in mind of a inside-forward . The one I didn't know was the 'goalscoring type'.

    Anyway, I made a mistake concerning Palotas but I'm still puzzling about the different roles of Puskas for NT and Honved.
     
  14. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    [This is quite fascinating because it's almost certainly old "W-M"-era positional terminology being carried-on in your language. If you will consult my previous post, a "creative inside-forward" was generally the "orthodox"- and the "roving"-types of inside-forward being grouped together because of their creative roles. In those days because positional terminology varied by club, playing level, region, etc.; many people involved w/the game believed that "orthodox" AND "roving" I-Fs had the same job on the pitch when they were in fact two very different positions w/teams that utilised them in their own distinct roles.

    So, taking the long way 'round, it's very possible that your football culture simply never recognised the difference between those two types of I-Fs...]
     
  15. ChaChaFut

    ChaChaFut Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    Yes, your previous post already addresses this, and what you say makes perfect sense as the context in which I find the term does correspond to a traditional 3-2-5 or "W-M". It is by no means a current term.

    I don't think that's it, it is just me who just learned the difference. No need to blame an entire football culture because of my individual ignorance. Thank you again for your detailed and enlightening replies.
     
  16. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    [To get you started, this is Stan Cullis talking about the rise of the "poacher"-type of I-F, Major Frank Buckley's and his role in the popularity of the "double centre-forward plan", etc. Scroll down to footnotes Nos. 5, 6 & 7 near the bottom of the page & just LMK if you have trouble finding the info:

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/WOLVcullis.htm



    This is just fantastic information from a book "written" by Jimmy Murphy that I actually own, but it's much easier to get you the info this way. Murphy talks about so-called "deep-lying CENTRE-forwards, "deep-lying" or "roving" I-Fs, how "attacking"-/"constructive"-types of wing-halves could best link-up w/them when being utilised in the same side, etc.:


    http://community.manutd.com/forums/p/175180/1622501.aspx

    Just LMK if you happen to need me to try and explain something, mate...]
     
  17. ChaChaFut

    ChaChaFut Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    To further comment, thank you Roy for answering my question before you even replied to my post. I am pretty sure the "deep-lying" I-F as you describe it is what constituted an "interior constructor" in Spanish. An example of this is a description of Luisito Suarez here: http://www.elenganche.es/etiqueta/eurocopa-1964 (even though he did not play in the "W-M" era per se -- but the wording remained). Also this perfectly fits the description of the traditional "ocho" (8) position (bo-to-box).
     
  18. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  19. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    [Excellent observations here, "msioux", the Hungarians seemed to prefer your more "technical CFs", but they also seemed to have issues w/producing the more direct, physical "W-M"-types as well.

    On a side note, Tommy Lawton was originally brought up through the ranks as a "classic"-type centre-forward and went on to become many an observer's favourite to be ranked as one of the VERY top "W-M-mould" No.9s of all-time...]
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What is the difference between those two types mr. Roy?

    And how do you explain that Kocsic was still famous for his heading ability? That seems to me a very classic CF attribute although it is I think correct that he did not play as such for the NT.
     
  21. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
     
  23. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Thanks mate!!!

    I had the feeling that in the 50s-60s, when most teams used twin spearhead or CF duo upfront, that in most cases, the guy who wear #9 shirt, had not played like a striker or target man. Who is the way that most think about a #9
     
  24. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    [Once again, you are quite welcome, mate.

    "sioux", since this sort of thing is right up yer alley: Do you want to take a shot at explaining the differences between a "pyramid-mould" C-F and a "W-M"-type to "Puck", or would you rather that I posted a link or two to where I've done it once before?]
     
  25. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    That would be nice, Roy!!

    I had the feeling with confussing role w/Pyramid System is that most of their roles had no similar in the next years.
     

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