Charlton can fill in if necessary? At right-back! I don't think so. Zoff over someone like Yashin? There has already been that debate earlier on and Zoff lost. Also, why does Zidane merit inclusion over the real legends like Maradona, Kocsis, etc. That is a joke in my opinion. Not too sure on Moore, but the rest are okay.
I honestly cannot see how Zidane merits a place in any of these teams. I'm not sure about the above pairing in centre defence. There have been much better options to choose from. Bye, bye Lothar.
gerd müller has scored in 35 goals in 35 champion cup games,20 goals in 25 cupwinner games and 11 goals in 14 uefacup games...he has a better GPG ratio in championcup games than in eurocup cupwinner games or uefa cup games...so what is your point with heynckes??? ronaldo caps: Total Record GP GW GD GL GF GA Pts Percentage 84 59 18 7 195- 66 136 80.95 56 Goals in 84 Matches (0.67 per match) Types of Goals Friendlies 19 Copa America 10 Confederations Cup 4 World Cup 12 World Cup Qualifiers 9 Other Tournaments 2 Total 56 --------- gerd müller caps: Matches Won Draw Lost For Against Points Percentage 62 45 9 8 143- 43 99 79.84 68 Goals in 62 Matches (1.10 per match) Types of Goals Friendlies 29 World Cup 14 World Cup Qualifiers 9 European Champ. Qual. 16 Total 68 ---------------------- gerd müller is a class above ronaldo in caps.... the total goal per game ratio of brasil games with player ronaldo is 251 goals:84 games is (2.988) the total goal per game ratio of germany games with player gerd müller is 186 goals:62 games (3.00) this confirm that in the days of gerd müller (60s-70s) the goal per game ratio wasnt higher than in days of ronaldo (90s-current)..its nearly absolut the same (3 goals per game) pitt
zoff lost, was he in the debate? i dont think its right for you to tell people they cant have theseplayers in their teams, there is nothing wrong with zidane, how many times have you seen yashin play? im guessing zero times live. most everyones teams are based off of hearsay, video clips, and stuff like that, and in the end its all opinion
Since the numerous injuries ronaldo's ratio has slowed down. Pre-injury his ratio's were simply ridicilous in the modern era. One thing I don't think is fair when people compare Muller with Ronaldo is that Muller played most of his life in a West German team with several alltimers in it and at a Bayern team that is up there as one of the best club sides ever...in other words..his teammates were always on his level and, they were for the most part fantastic players = superb supply lines, huge amount of player chemistry developed other years of playing together and Muller as the goalscoring focal point of both teams. His records are of course phenomenal but it would have been nice to see how he would have faired in a disjointed career with club movement and at times having team mates of a lesser calibre. By no means are these points against Muller - He's the best poacher ever, imo - but I think they put certain things into perspective. For most of his career Ronaldo has 'self assisted' regardless of team mates even at Real the team is not a cohesive unit and certainly not in Bayern of the 70's class. His NT whilst being good, is not on the level of WG in the 70's. Muller played in the absolute pinnacle sides of his nations history. I dont think the same can be said of Ronaldo (Think of the Selecao's of every decade from the 50's to the 80's and place the teams in any order you want - Ronaldo's teams come up way short in terms of quality and certified legends) and then we add the injuries that have blighted him and see the modified Ronaldo that is maybe 70% of what he was...these factors add up I feel. Ronaldo may well keep scoring till the end of his career but, we will never see the pre-injury Ronaldo - the one I feel would have matched Mullers numbers regardless of his teammates - again. On a sidenote, does anyone else ever wonder what another superb no.9 would have done in the teams Muller played in? Would say, Van BAsten have matched those numbers or Eusebio etc?
You cannot compare Müller to any other striker, because he played in a very special way. He wasn´t as limited in technical manner as some people think but he mostly not used this. He could do dribblings, he could do assists, he could play in midfield, but he most times did not, because the special way he played was much more successful. The "typische Müller Tor" has gotten a synonym in german football language which is used up to today. It´s just to anticipate to stand at the right point at the right time, mostly with his back to the goal and his face to his midfilder who play a short and flat pass to him, oftenly with give and go passing, to stop the ball, shielding it with pulling his ass to the back to keep the defender away from the ball, send the defender with a short trick body move to one side, turn around to the other side, turning and shooting to the goal in one moove, not very fast, almost never high, but almost ever in a far angle to the corner of the goal, without looking to the goal or the keeper, just knowing like having a secret radar where the corner of the goal is. Stopping, turning around, shooting was one single and very fast moove. He was the very best player ever in taking of the pass, control it, turn around and shoot on the space of a telephone cell, there could be three defenders around him, play to Müller he will get the pass and controll it and uses his short and very muscular legs to be the fastest player ever on the first 1 or 2 meter, and he never needed more space to score. Thats the way he made more of the half of his goals, but he also had all other possibilities a complete striker needs, he was very fast for the first 10-15 meters, could do a 1:1 dribbling, could do headers, overhed volleys, could even fall back to the midfield and play the famous müller-beckenbauer-müller combination thru the middle of the defence. But as I said, most time that wasn´t needed, because the best german or bayern combination in that days, was to give Müller the ball when he stands somewhere at the penalty point and let him turn around and producing his hundreds of no look turnaraound one or two ball contact goals.
ronaldos numbers in his national team isnt changed..in his first 40 games he has the same statistic like later after his injured days..i understand that his injuries has cost him some few years of his career, but he still has the chance to be part of 4 worldcups....brasil with ronaldo was 3 times in the finals of the worldcup..müller in 2 worldcups winner and thirdranked..so i think not west germanys team of 1970 was maybe twice better than the teams of brasil with ronaldo..ronaldos gpg ratio is 0.67 and müllers is 1.10..the difrence is to big ...if you check some worldcup games of müller you understand that he was not only a goalscorer , he has assistet for goals as well..he gave the gamewinnerassist for the thirdplace win against uruquay 1970, this was the only game of this worldcup where he has not scored....he olso has assistet goals in worldcup 1974...müller was a great penaltyscorer but he has not scored the 2 penalitys team germany got 1974 (breitner,hoeness)..he had the possibility to score more than his 14 goals in 13 worldcupgames...another point is that ronaldo maybe will break müllers total worldcup goal record and the reason is ronaldo will play a lot more worldcupgames and more worldcups than müller..so ronaldo will be praised for that maybe soon...its given and taken..müller failed only few months to be part in germanys worldcupteam 1966(he was great 1967) and he has leaved the german nationalteam 1974 for ever with age 29 ... gerd müller was still the topscorer in german bundesliga 1978 same year of the worldcup.....van basten has only 24 goals in 56 games for netherland...this isnt great for a worldclass striker.he was a great scorer in eurocups and ligagames but had not his numbers in the nationalteam ... he has played with many great dutch players,gullit,rykard,koeman,bergkamp and won the eurochampionship.....but his gpg ratio in caps is only 0.43 (müller 1.10)..i understand injurys has hurt his career..but i can not accept that ronaldo or van basten in germanys wc team of the 70s could have the same success like müller you suggest me..he was more a deadly goalscorer than ronaldo or allround striker talent van basten..and goals win games .watch the gamewinner against netherland in the final 1974, the assist pass from hölzenbein was played in his back , do you ever believe ronaldo or van basten could score a goal in the same situation??hell i believe not...and gerd müller was taken away a regulare goal in this final too....the brasilian,english,italien national teams of the 60s and 70s was filled with superstars, not only the team of germany....brasil won two of the last 3 worldcups and was in the final 1998.. brasil was with france the top teams in the world for some years.. pitt
Yepp. The 1974 2:1 against Holland was a typical Müller Goal. Turn around and shoot in once not looking to goal or keeper, not shooting very hard, but knowing blind where the corner of the goal ist.
Ronaldo played no minutes in '94 so we have '98 and '02 and with that he is not far behind Muller at all. Consider the fact that Ronaldo has had two career threatening injuries and he is only 28 and we can remove nearly 3 years off his tallies then add on the fact it takes time to get back to full strength after injury and surely a sense of perspective is created? I disagree. If you recall how Ronaldo was before his career was disrupted those numbers were definitely within his spectrum to achieve. As of 2002 Ronaldo is a lot more conventional and relies more on others for service, I think now in this current incarnation 'Muller numbers' are not attainable for him. The same could be said of Ronaldo and his defunct final in '98. Who knows what he could have done if he wasn't a vegetable that day? It would have affected his current tally also. I'm certainly not disputing Muller's ability btw. Of his type he's one of my favourite players ever. I just feel that when you are playing in a team(s) worthy of al-time merit with so many players who are as legendary as you are you can express yourself to the fullest of your capability and service is almost guaranteed in near every game you play. This shouldn't be forgotten when discussing Muller, imo. They are both on 2World Cups and their tallies are very close. '94 is a misnomer and forseebly one game into the next WC Ronaldo could break Muller's record..that really isn't that great a difference in games. Of course Ronaldo could possibly have 2more WC's in him (but I doubt it) and that can be taken into account even if/after he breaks the record. I don't think it lessons the achievement. Like I say with Ronaldo I would not be amazed to see him retire early. Don't forget Muller had a career that wasn't disrupted by injury, relocation or low calibre of teamate. It's an important set of factors, i feel. I agree. I used Van Basten because he is commonly used in all time xi's. He's probably not the best example in light of his int. ratio..how's about we say.. Romario or Greaves or even Lineker? My point was to say a 9 considered to be a great slotted into that legendary WG side of say '72 or ''74 . It is not very often when an elite team has an off day.. Players do crazy things in WC's that they would never do outside of that arena..Ronaldo's flying kick, lunge in '02 was something you wont see him do again until '06.who knows which players could make that shot under such special circumstances? I think it's hard to call. With due respect to those teams of England and Italy they didn't have a striker to match the calibre of the rest of the team..Greaves should have been that man for England but, we know what happened there. I don't know if there is a possibility to make a comparitve analysis for Brazil '70 as that team was non uniform in the extreme. Another thing I would say to you here is that WG 1972 and 1974 teams are commonly known as 2 of the best national sides ever. England's 1970 side is deemed the best set of players but they were knocked out by..well... Italy were OK but not the same level as those WG teams. I rank the WG teams of the 70's extremely highly. Yes but how many of those players man for man are legends? True all timers.. Some would say only the two wingbacks and Ronaldo fit that bill..others would say even less. There is a difference, imo.
The shot you're reffering to is commonly called the turn,swivel shot round these parts IIRC tpmazembe calls it the sky hook shot as per the draft of drafts. It's a remarkable move, one which I've only seen Muller do to such a level of perfection. It would be an interesting statistic to find out just how many goals that move accounts for in his total goal %. I think it's undefendable when performed correctly.
great post.....do you remember his action, i believe it was against east germany wc 1974 where he has stopped a pass in air with left,a defender in his back,he turned his body and with a leftvolley he hit unfortunately only the post...this was a great action and confirm that he was far away to be only a poacher...it was no good game of team west germany and they lost 1:0.. pitt
Boo hoo hoo. Try reading the entire topic, the debates and the opinions of everyone else. If you don't like it or cannot accept that you could be wrong, then explain to us why that is the case. That's what a message board is for mate. I await your reasoning for including Zoff and Zidane in the side. What about why he played Gullit/Charlton at rightback or the other poster for having Andrew Cole upfront. We are perfectly entitled to correct these mistakes and ask why they are there in the first place.
in his first 37 caps for brasil ronaldo wasnt injured and he has scored 25 goals in 37 games..this is exactly his gpg ratio he has in his whole cap career 0.67..yes injuries has cost maybe 3 years of his career ,but he was strong again quick in year 2002 with 8 wc goals ..so he was fit after this 3 years ...team brasil had with ronaldo,rivaldo,carlos and ronaldinho 4 great players and has played a limited german team in the finals..surprisly the german team has played his best tournamentgame in wc 2002 against brasil.... team germany hasnt played well the first games of worldcup 1974 there was a lot trouble and this hurting loss to eastgermany..beckenbauer has taken control of this and team germany has played well since them...poland was very strong so was netherland..it was a lucky win for team germany against poland in this chaos game..team germany 1972 was the strongest ever and i think team 1970 was not worster than the 1974 team..the whole worldcup 1970 in mexiko was better than worldcup 1974..england 1970 was very strong but did some mistakes and banks was sick...to take out charlton and the mistake from the goalkeeper on germanys first goal...seelers goal is classic and i do not blame the english keeper..this backheader was surprising for everbody...but like müller has said in a interview,england has waisted a 2:0 lead and germany fought back late in this game..italy had a very good team to..europeanchampion from 1968...italy won very very lucky against germany in extratime and both team was total exhausted after 120 minutes in the midday heat of mexico city..this game is called the best worldcup game ever..brasil took advantage of that in the finalgame against italy...diffrent to italy , brasil had a relativ easy win in the semi after 90 minutes..,team italy was tired after 70 minutes in the finals and got 3 goals against brasil....gerd müllers biggest loss in his career was the 4:3 loss against italy..team germany was much better in the first 90 minutes and has attacked italys defenese allways and has scored only in minutes 91 the tie..beckenbauer got no penality and has played since this foul with a disolated schoulder ... the extratime was only win or loose without big defensive plays....both teams got standing ovation of the crowd....for a german like me it hurt for the reason the great german team from 1970 got not the opputurnity to play a great braslien team in a wc cup 1970..the final in year 2002 bwas total difrent..germany was a outsider in this tournament and a outsider in the final and has played without his best player ballack.... my goal is not play down ronaldos career..he could be one of the best strikers ever in history and he still has the chance to archiv more..he is still young...but he is current not the same level to gerd müller..its close but not the same.. southamericans have the tendenz to play down gerd müllers career..without to knows to much about him..the reason i think is that his statistics and succeess is in rivalry to the statistic of many brasilian stars...its a patriotic act or what ever.. i have seen a brasilien poll,voting for the best players ever where gerd müller was ranked i think it was beween 45-50 and this i think is ridiculos.. pitt
Ronaldo has a four year period (1994-1998) which ranks up there with any similar period from any player ever. 1994/95 - PSV - 37 games 35 goals 1995/96 - PSV - 21/19 1996/97 - Barcelona - 49/47 1997/98 - Inter - 47/34 Total 154 games 135 goals. In his season at Barcelona he carried them more than even Maradona carried Napoli in the late 80's and it has to rank as one fo the greatest (if not the greatest) individual season ever. Who knows what would have happened had all of his injury problems not occurred - just as will never know how Muller would have performed had he carried on his Bayern career after his early 30's, and how we will never know how many goals Puskas & Kocsis would have won had the Hungarian Revolution not occurred.
a surprise ist this statistic.. gerd müller has played from 1966-1974 ..team germany has scored in in 62 games with gerd müller 143 goals and the opponents have scored 43 goals in this 62 games..the total goals is 186...186goals:62 games is 3.00 goals per game.. ronaldo has played 20-30 years later from 1994-current 84 games with brasil...in this 84 games with ronaldo ,team brasil has scored 195 goals and the opponents have scored 66 goals...the total goals 261...261 goals:84 games is 3.10 goals per game.... this confirm that 20-30 years after müllers cap career the total goal per game ratio of brasils 84 (with ronaldo) caps was higher (3.1) than germanys 62 (with müller) caps total goal per game ratio (3.0) ... the scores in the mid 60 up to the 70s wasnt higher than todays scores.. pitt
I think you missunderstood me I was talking about Ronaldo as a whole not just his NT averages. His club career was stellar before injury as in the output ratio was something that had not been seen for a long time before. IIRC Romario has a similar output gpg ratio. My point being is that pre-injury Ronaldo was just getting better and better and I personally cannot doubt that his NT averages would have gone thru the roof sooner rather than later. Injury changed alot of things and now I don't think what I thought was attaianble for him is possible anymore. As Ianman pointed out his pre-injury exploits where of such an amazing level that many consider his season at Barcelona to be one of the best ever for the sheer skill and performance, not just the goals but the way he was getting them. At that precise moment I would put him only under Pele in terms of impact on the game. What I'm trying to point out also is that Ronaldo was not on an all-time club or NT at the time and was doing almost everything on his own. He didn't have a Vogts or a Beckenbauer or a Netzer or an Overath etc beside him. He had what was for the most part, passengers. I agree it is ridiculous for Muller to sit at 45 in any list. But most of the posters on here who I would deem knowledgeable rate Muller as at least a top 3 striker of all time. His goal record is undisputable but for sheer breathtaking performance he is not in Ronaldo's (pre-injury) league. Where Muller always had the same guys around him of the status in the game I mentioned Ronaldo has not. I Dont know where you rate the likes of ronaldinho and Rivaldo but for most they wont go down in history as alltimers but rather, very good players of the era. Only time will tell how great Ronaldinho becomes but, I myself cannot see him being a revered figure in say 50years time. I don't buy the idea of bias against Muller btw. I just think many believe he was as good as the service he recieved rather then the guy who is going to take the ball at the half way line run thru 7men and side foot past the keeper. People rate goals highly but they rate genius higher.
here are the seasons statistics of gerd müller where include only first divison games , cup games,eurocup games and nationalteam games....no un important friendly game with bayern is in this statistic Recap of his scored goals per season: season-games-goals-penalties 1965-66 Total: 39 / 16 (0p) 1966-67 Total: 48 / 47 (4p) 1967-68 Total: 48 / 31 (6p) 1968-69 Total: 42 / 46 (5p) 1969-70 Total: 51 / 54 (5p) 1970-71 Total: 54 / 49 (4p) 1971-72 Total: 47 / 64 (1p) 1972-73 Total: 49 / 60 (9p) 1973-74 Total: 64 / 54 (7p) 1974-75 Total: 43 / 30 (4p) 1975-76 Total: 34 / 35 (8p) 1976-77 Total: 33 / 44 (5p) 1977-78 Total: 43 / 32 (9p) 1978-79 Total: 21 / 13 (4p) gerd müller got a special permit to play the eurocup winners final 1967 with a broken arm..he has assistet the 1:0 game winner... check his 1976-1977 statistic..he was in age 31-32 and had has scored for bayern fantastic 44 goals in 33 games..not to mention his other years statistics...the reason bayern munich was eliminated in this season 76-77 to win his 4 straight eurochampionwinner cup was gerd müllers injury in this season..his injury has could cost him and bayern the german championship and topscorercrown..bayern has won 1:0 and lost 2:0 against kiew without müller...müller hasnt played 9 of 34 german liga games with munich but still had fantastic 28 goals in 25 games with bayern..he was still ranked 1976-77 second ranked in the german liga topscorer list with 6 goals lesser than dieter müller who had 34 goals in 34 games .... gerd müller has played in the season 1975-76 only 22 of 34 german liga games with munich but he has scored 23 goals in 22 games....this maybe has cost bayern munich the german championship again and for sure it has cost him the german topscorer crown again.....the topscorer had 28 goals in 33 games.. in his last days 1978-1979 müller had some injuries too ..he wasnt allways healty in his career... pitt
I don't think it would be a stretch to rank this as superior to any of Pele's seasons. He produced this performance playing with new team-mates in a completely new enviroment - one of the most demanding in world football. He scored the winning goal in the Cup Winners Cup final and also helped Barca win the Spanish Cup and finish second in La Liga. The only team-mate he had who would be considered amongst the best in the world at the time was Figo, who was certainly not at the level of Beckenbauer, Maier, Breitner et al. On top of all this he started the season aged just 19.
here are my top 11.... yashin,,moore, maldini,breitner,beckenbauer,cruyjf,zidane or(maradona),puskas,pele,garincha,müller close : eusebio,best,di stefano,van basten,romario,ronaldo,baresi,kohler,banks,charlton..
Dark Savante, I don`t think that at Bayern (late-60s/early-70s), there were so many great offensive players. The all-timers that played for Bayern, Beckenbauer, Breitner and Maier, were all defenders. If you look at the players that played upfront with Müller or in the midfield, it doesn`t look that stellar. Check out these names: Ohlhauser, Roth, Dürnberger, Sühnholz, E.Schneider, W.Hoffmann, Nafziger, Brenninger, Wunder, Zobel, Torstensson ... I bet the Real Madrid of Ronaldo has a lot more to offer in the offensive department, as did the Barca of the mid-90s. The only players of international class that assisted Müller up front was Uli Hoeness (from 1971 to 1978, though he was injured a lot from '75 onwards), and Rummenigge (from 74 to 79). Müller was able to score for Bayern despite a certain lack of classy companions assisting him in the penalty area. And back then, aggressive man-marking was standard, Müller always had to deal with at least two defenders looking for him, sometimes even three. Let`s have a look at the forwards playing for West Germany in 70, 72 and 74. Löhr, Grabowski, Libuda ('70), Kremers, Grabowski and Heynckes ('72) and Hölzenbein, Herzog and Grabowski ('74). At least in the offensive department, this doesn`t look that stellar.
'A' Team (Damn the formation. I put the best players and they'll be unstopable) ...........Yashin ...........Moore D.Santos.........Maldini .........Beckembauer Cruyff...Di Stefano...Maradona Garrincha...Puskas...Pele 'B' Team ..........Zoff ...Baressi...Passarella Vogts.............Marzolini .......Rijkaard ...Platini....Didi Best .......Muller..Eusebio 'C' Team ......Fillol ......Scirea Gentile.......N.Santos ........Kroll ...Ardiles...Suarez ......Zidane S.Mathews.......Gento .......Ronaldo
Based on the few tapes I've seen, it does seem unstoppable when he makes that fake, turn and shot. The move is very hard to defend, but obviously to attempt it you have to be powerfully strong, very quick, and have an accurate shot. Not many players have all three. (Martin Palermo likes to try it. Watch him. He usually gets it blocked or the ball ends up in the upper level of the stands) Still, I am surprised that we don't see this move more often at the top level. There was a Danish player in the 80's who also performed it quite well. Preben Elkjaer Larsen. And more recently, I've seen Bergkamp do it quite well on occasion. Really, I think coaches could work on this more, teaching the big strong players to take advantage of their size. In basketball they isolate big players in practice and teach them moves which take advantage of their size. To some extent this could be done more in soccer. We see many big men who don't really take as much advantage of their strength as they could, except for crosses and dead balls. Any player who has size would do well to watch tapes of Muller.